Installation of a generator for a house.

Tomgunn:

Weirdbeard:

Hi Tom, do you have a ball park figure in mind of what you might consider spending for materials and time on this project? 



 

I would think that setting it all up would / could be completed in a day or so??? 


The switch gear, (manual), seems very simple and I'm sure I can sort / iron out any problems. 


I have to be honest, here... you see I was thinking about buying a 3' x 3' bit of ply... fixing some 3" x 3" metal trunking, a third of the way up... fix a fused switch, fix a contactor plus a switched spur to energize the contactor... fix some other bits like a timer etc BUT... I can now simply fix a switch!! Haha!


Costs??? The switchover would be around £100??? A generator would be about... £1k?? Miscellaneous ~ £200???


I just feel that 2021 etc... could be a difficult period in these VERY uncertain times! I just want to make sure I'm covering my bottom!!


Good luck ~ Tom

Thanks Tom, Good luck to you too ?

Tomgunn:

broadgage:

I would favour a diesel generator over other fuels.

Diesel is much cheaper to run than petrol, and a lot safer to store. The law sets strict limits on petrol storage, but almosy any amount of diesel may be stored.

Propane is only worth considersing if you going to use this fuel for other purposes and keep a large stock.


Automatic start and changeover adds considerable cost and complication. I would favour push button electric start, and a manual change over switch.


I would suggest a continual rating of about 4.5 to 5 Kw for most domestic standby purposes.

This will allow almost unlimited use of lighting, refrigeration, central heating, IT stuff,  entertainments and other low loading items. Allow up to about 1.5 Kw in total for such loads. This will also permit use of JUST ONE heavy loading appliance such as a washing machine, a tumble dryer, a kettle, a portable heater, a table top electric cooker, a power tool, or a vaccuum cleaner. But ONLY ONE such appliance at a time.


I would install two consumer units, one for "mains only" circuits and one for for "mains with changeover to generator" Use red 13 amp sockets on 4 amp circuits for the generator backed circuits. Use these outlets for all or most low loading appliances. The 4 amp MCBs will deter use of heaters and kettles. 1.5mm cable would suffice, but I would use 2.5mm in case you get a larger generator and want to uprate these circuits to 20 amps.

In the kitchan, fit ONE SINGLE red 13 amp socket on a 10 amp MCB, this to permit use of JUST ONE heavy loading appliance. A 10 amp MCB will supply almost any portable appliance that has a 13 amp plug. A bigger MCB than 10 amps will encourage use of "death cubes" and multiple appliances. In case a heavy loading appliance is needed in another room, provide a heavy duty extension lead with a SINGLE outlet.


Connect to the generator backed consumer unit the following.

All lighting.

Central heating.

Any dedicated circuits for fire alarms or intruder alarms.

Anything else useful or important and of low loading.

4 amp power circuits as described above.


Connect to the mains only consumer unit the following.

Electric cooker.

Electric shower.

General purpose (white) 13 amp power sockets on standard ring or radial final circuits.

Anything else of high loading.

Mains into the generator changeover switch.


Install a few self contained emergency lights on the lighting circuits to light the exit routes and also to light the generator and changeover switch. Make certain that these emergency lights are on a circuit supplied by the generator, in order that they will charge when the generator is started and therefore still be nearly fully charged if the generator trips or breaks before the mains supply is restored.

Crikey!! Great food for thought!! I have not heard of "death cubes" before!!"


Good idea on the 2 x CCUs! 


SO, diesel / propane?? I think I may be falling towards diesel.


Need to look into the red SSO's... great idea about emergency lighting!!!


Many thanks for posting this!!


regards... Tom


 

"Death cube" is a slang term applied to moulded 2 or 3 way 13 amp adaptors used to insert 2 or 3 plugs into one socket. Usually not fused so nothing prevents a gross overload.

Red 13 amp socket outlets are available on fleabay or from the larger wholesalers. If all over red is too ugly, then consider white sockets but with red switch rockers, less conspicous but still different from standard white including the switches. Install plenty of these red 13 amp sockets, the idea is not to limit the number of very loading appliance, and the 4 amp MCB will limit the total loading per circuit.

Suggested numbers of DOUBLE  red sockets per room.

Single bedroom, 3, one beside the bed, and 2 others.

Double/twin bedroom, 5 or 6, one each side of each bed and others.

Living room, at least 6, 3 in likely location for TV and 3 elswhere.

Kitchen, 3 .Plus ONE SINGLE RED outlet on 10 amp MCB.


Dont forget to allow enough red sockets for all the following.

Tv set. Cable TV or satellite box. DVD player.

Internet router, cordless phone base units. Portable radio sets.

Cellphone chargers, laptop or notebook chargers.

Portable lamps, desk fans, Christmas lighting.

Electric blankets.

Equipment for heated aquaria or tropical pets.


Diesel fuel is IMHO preferable, but propane worth considering if a bulk tank will be available.


It might be worth installing a 12 volt lighting circuit supplied from a deep cycle battery and battery charger. This will avoid running the generator all night when only a few lights are required. 12 volt, 6 watt LED lamps give a reasonable light, and a dozen such lamps spread around even a large home will be ample for basic use. One or two lamps may be used all night if required without excessive battery discharge.

Keep the lighting battery and the engine starter battery seperate, though they could be the same type for simplicity.

Smaller diesels are usually 12 volt starting, and can be jump started from a car if all else fails.

 

OMS:

Tomgunn:

If you have any info, about Hastings, then let me know... if you get the time!


regards... Tom

Hastings ? - I think there was a bit of unpleasantness with a few French chaps a while back  - had someones eye out, I believe


Ohhh - and I think there's an insurance company in town (which is handy if the next lot of French chaps arrive suddenly, and do a bit of damage)


Didn't that little Belgian fella have a mate from Hastings as well


Anyway, Crack on, Tom - we know where to come for a brew when the country collapses, it could be a good place to get a once used inflatable to head across the channel for supplies 


Regards


OMS


 

French bloke? Nah... AH! Charles de Gaulle???  I know he ran away, when he was scared BUT... I don't know anything about losing an eye??? THEN, he pooed on the UK after some war, or sumfing??


You little tinker, OMS... you couldn't resist it, hahaha!! ?


Everyone is welcome, for a brew!!


THANKS... I will do my best to 'crack on!!' ?


Regards...


Tom




 

broadgage:

Tomgunn:

broadgage:

I would favour a diesel generator over other fuels.

Diesel is much cheaper to run than petrol, and a lot safer to store. The law sets strict limits on petrol storage, but almosy any amount of diesel may be stored.

Propane is only worth considersing if you going to use this fuel for other purposes and keep a large stock.


Automatic start and changeover adds considerable cost and complication. I would favour push button electric start, and a manual change over switch.


I would suggest a continual rating of about 4.5 to 5 Kw for most domestic standby purposes.

This will allow almost unlimited use of lighting, refrigeration, central heating, IT stuff,  entertainments and other low loading items. Allow up to about 1.5 Kw in total for such loads. This will also permit use of JUST ONE heavy loading appliance such as a washing machine, a tumble dryer, a kettle, a portable heater, a table top electric cooker, a power tool, or a vaccuum cleaner. But ONLY ONE such appliance at a time.


I would install two consumer units, one for "mains only" circuits and one for for "mains with changeover to generator" Use red 13 amp sockets on 4 amp circuits for the generator backed circuits. Use these outlets for all or most low loading appliances. The 4 amp MCBs will deter use of heaters and kettles. 1.5mm cable would suffice, but I would use 2.5mm in case you get a larger generator and want to uprate these circuits to 20 amps.

In the kitchan, fit ONE SINGLE red 13 amp socket on a 10 amp MCB, this to permit use of JUST ONE heavy loading appliance. A 10 amp MCB will supply almost any portable appliance that has a 13 amp plug. A bigger MCB than 10 amps will encourage use of "death cubes" and multiple appliances. In case a heavy loading appliance is needed in another room, provide a heavy duty extension lead with a SINGLE outlet.


Connect to the generator backed consumer unit the following.

All lighting.

Central heating.

Any dedicated circuits for fire alarms or intruder alarms.

Anything else useful or important and of low loading.

4 amp power circuits as described above.


Connect to the mains only consumer unit the following.

Electric cooker.

Electric shower.

General purpose (white) 13 amp power sockets on standard ring or radial final circuits.

Anything else of high loading.

Mains into the generator changeover switch.


Install a few self contained emergency lights on the lighting circuits to light the exit routes and also to light the generator and changeover switch. Make certain that these emergency lights are on a circuit supplied by the generator, in order that they will charge when the generator is started and therefore still be nearly fully charged if the generator trips or breaks before the mains supply is restored.

Crikey!! Great food for thought!! I have not heard of "death cubes" before!!"


Good idea on the 2 x CCUs! 


SO, diesel / propane?? I think I may be falling towards diesel.


Need to look into the red SSO's... great idea about emergency lighting!!!


Many thanks for posting this!!


regards... Tom


 

"Death cube" is a slang term applied to moulded 2 or 3 way 13 amp adaptors used to insert 2 or 3 plugs into one socket. Usually not fused so nothing prevents a gross overload.

Red 13 amp socket outlets are available on fleabay or from the larger wholesalers. If all over red is too ugly, then consider white sockets but with red switch rockers, less conspicous but still different from standard white including the switches. Install plenty of these red 13 amp sockets, the idea is not to limit the number of very loading appliance, and the 4 amp MCB will limit the total loading per circuit.

Suggested numbers of DOUBLE  red sockets per room.

Single bedroom, 3, one beside the bed, and 2 others.

Double/twin bedroom, 5 or 6, one each side of each bed and others.

Living room, at least 6, 3 in likely location for TV and 3 elswhere.

Kitchen, 3 .Plus ONE SINGLE RED outlet on 10 amp MCB.


Dont forget to allow enough red sockets for all the following.

Tv set. Cable TV or satellite box. DVD player.

Internet router, cordless phone base units. Portable radio sets.

Cellphone chargers, laptop or notebook chargers.

Portable lamps, desk fans, Christmas lighting.

Electric blankets.

Equipment for heated aquaria or tropical pets.


Diesel fuel is IMHO preferable, but propane worth considering if a bulk tank will be available.


It might be worth installing a 12 volt lighting circuit supplied from a deep cycle battery and battery charger. This will avoid running the generator all night when only a few lights are required. 12 volt, 6 watt LED lamps give a reasonable light, and a dozen such lamps spread around even a large home will be ample for basic use. One or two lamps may be used all night if required without excessive battery discharge.

Keep the lighting battery and the engine starter battery seperate, though they could be the same type for simplicity.

Smaller diesels are usually 12 volt starting, and can be jump started from a car if all else fails.

 

WOW!!! I never thought, but makes sense, cube 'adaptors' would be described as 'death cube!!!!'


Lots of good ideas including some battery lighting!!


Maybe, I am making myself look a bit stupid here BUT... new start, (hopefully), and I just wan to cover myself... thanks!


Cheers!!!!!


 

Tomgunn:

Hello PG, thanks... I hope all will go well, with my move!


Basically I'd like a generator that would run the lighting / fridges / heating system so, not much wattage, really.


There are no dependents i.e; life saving requirements.


Hastings is where I'm going, (looking at two on this coming Sunday), so the power supply would / should be ok??


I live in Worcester Park, Surrey and I've had a few power cuts, over the years.


Cheers PG!! 




 

Tom,
From Simon’s advice, it looks like that your set will not have to run frequently but if you remain a cynic (like me) the “Just Generator” web site is comprehensive and has a power consumption calculator. I think that their consumption figures are pessimistic and a 3kW set would supply all of your requirements. My 5/5.5kWpk set will supply all base loads plus one of the heavier loads such as microwave, oven, grill, washing machine [not electric shower]. If you had knowledge of the duty cycle, say the washing machine, then you may be able to run more than one of the larger loads concurrently.
I had a preference for an AVR, to supply more voltage sensitive loads such as a PC and an electric start (easier for the Wife to start or for me when I get older). These features tend to be on the larger range of machine which confirmed my selection of the 5kW set.
Having established that your machine is unlikely to run often or as a base load set and that there are no special requirements, it looks like a manual changeover, open frame, petrol driven set would meet the requirements.   Don’t forget the wheel kit.
If noise is going to be a problem then you can find silenced sets on the Just Generator web site – at a premium cost!!
As previously noted, petrol has a limited life when kept in a partially ventilated tank. A few months according to google sources. I keep my machine empty of fuel and store the petrol in a full, proprietary, fuel container(s) with a tight-fitting top. Apparently, this gives a life of 6months or more. The older petrol goes in the car, with no apparent problems. I just have to charge the battery and turn the engine over occasionally. Keep a torch handy for fuelling the set and operating the changeover switch in the dark. Also, a piece of “rubber” tubing to drain the tank.
You probably know that the installation is notifiable to Building Control and that the DNO will want a few forms filled out (UKPN wanted some forms completed and provided a letter of acceptance). The DNOs don’t seem to be too interested and didn’t want to witness final testing. Neither they or the Meter Operator were interested in pulling the cut-out the seals are still awaiting replacement.
Regards

 

PG:

Tomgunn:

Hello PG, thanks... I hope all will go well, with my move!


Basically I'd like a generator that would run the lighting / fridges / heating system so, not much wattage, really.


There are no dependents i.e; life saving requirements.


Hastings is where I'm going, (looking at two on this coming Sunday), so the power supply would / should be ok??


I live in Worcester Park, Surrey and I've had a few power cuts, over the years.


Cheers PG!! 




 

Tom,
From Simon’s advice, it looks like that your set will not have to run frequently but if you remain a cynic (like me) the “Just Generator” web site is comprehensive and has a power consumption calculator. I think that their consumption figures are pessimistic and a 3kW set would supply all of your requirements. My 5/5.5kWpk set will supply all base loads plus one of the heavier loads such as microwave, oven, grill, washing machine [not electric shower]. If you had knowledge of the duty cycle, say the washing machine, then you may be able to run more than one of the larger loads concurrently.
I had a preference for an AVR, to supply more voltage sensitive loads such as a PC and an electric start (easier for the Wife to start or for me when I get older). These features tend to be on the larger range of machine which confirmed my selection of the 5kW set.
Having established that your machine is unlikely to run often or as a base load set and that there are no special requirements, it looks like a manual changeover, open frame, petrol driven set would meet the requirements.   Don’t forget the wheel kit.
If noise is going to be a problem then you can find silenced sets on the Just Generator web site – at a premium cost!!
As previously noted, petrol has a limited life when kept in a partially ventilated tank. A few months according to google sources. I keep my machine empty of fuel and store the petrol in a full, proprietary, fuel container(s) with a tight-fitting top. Apparently, this gives a life of 6months or more. The older petrol goes in the car, with no apparent problems. I just have to charge the battery and turn the engine over occasionally. Keep a torch handy for fuelling the set and operating the changeover switch in the dark. Also, a piece of “rubber” tubing to drain the tank.
You probably know that the installation is notifiable to Building Control and that the DNO will want a few forms filled out (UKPN wanted some forms completed and provided a letter of acceptance). The DNOs don’t seem to be too interested and didn’t want to witness final testing. Neither they or the Meter Operator were interested in pulling the cut-out the seals are still awaiting replacement.
Regards

 

Hello PG, thanks for more info!! Just looked at the 'Just Generator' website... that's the place to go to and just what I needed!


They do a 5.5 kW generator... like yours. I guess? 5.5 kW AVR Generator. 


Have to find out what a 'wheel kit' is BUT, haha, I guess it's, (duh), a set of wheels for the generator??? Hahaha, I'm stupid, I know!


'DNO?????' Mmmmmm?


Great advice, as per usual!


THANKS!


Regards...


Tom




 

Hastings ? - I think there was a bit of unpleasantness with a few French chaps a while back - had someones eye out, I believe

AJJewsbury:

Hastings ? - I think there was a bit of unpleasantness with a few French chaps a while back - had someones eye out, I believe

I got told off once by a resident of those parts for spreading false rumours - apparently the locals claim the battle wasn't as Hastings at all, but a few miles inland at a place called, believe it or not, Battle. (I presume it wasn't called that at the time though - that would have been too much of a co-incidence)


  - Andy.

And William was only nominally French.  He was a Norman (i.e. a Norse man).  They pretended to be subservient to the king of France, but only if the king of France didn't try to tell them what to do.  In reality, the Normans had invaded Normandy, and there was nothing the French could do about it.

AJJewsbury:

Hastings ? - I think there was a bit of unpleasantness with a few French chaps a while back - had someones eye out, I believe

I got told off once by a resident of those parts for spreading false rumours - apparently the locals claim the battle wasn't as Hastings at all, but a few miles inland at a place called, believe it or not, Battle. (I presume it wasn't called that at the time though - that would have been too much of a co-incidence)


  - Andy.

Hello Andy...


I have watched a few documentaries that said the same!! I just hope I don't have too much of trouble with my 'battle' of getting there!


- Tom

Simon Barker:

AJJewsbury:

Hastings ? - I think there was a bit of unpleasantness with a few French chaps a while back - had someones eye out, I believe

I got told off once by a resident of those parts for spreading false rumours - apparently the locals claim the battle wasn't as Hastings at all, but a few miles inland at a place called, believe it or not, Battle. (I presume it wasn't called that at the time though - that would have been too much of a co-incidence)


  - Andy.

And William was only nominally French.  He was a Norman (i.e. a Norse man).  They pretended to be subservient to the king of France, but only if the king of France didn't try to tell them what to do.  In reality, the Normans had invaded Normandy, and there was nothing the French could do about it.

Normandy named after the men from the north!


Cheers!