Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 95 replies
  • Subscribers 32 subscribers
  • Views 6898 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion is locked.
You cannot post a reply to this discussion. If you have a question start a new discussion

Caravan hook up

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Hi I am fitting a caravan hook up on the wall next to  the dno incomer box. No wires exposed. Do I still require an earth rod. The earth bond will be prob 1 ft long inside so not exposed. I know if I fit the box away using swa then yes earth rod would be used.
  • 0
    I am not talking about a device cutting out anything with DNO. I was looking at a Viridian EV pen loss connection centre. New to market. A solution to not using an earth rod.

    I think UKPN was referring to the device cutting the connection between the caravan and the DNO's earth terminal - which they necessarily must do.


    There are a few non-electrode makes of such devices on the market now - which meet the requirements of regulation 722.411.4.1 (iv) for EVs - i.e. the look for a broken PEN (a.k.a. CNE) by checking the L-N voltage and presume a break when it's outside of a +/- 10% of 230V range.


    There are a couple of issues - firstly there are some conditions, where a single phase installation is fed from a 3-phase distribution system (which is of course the most common arrangement), where a broken PEN can occur and the N & PE of the installation be raised well above a safe voltage above true earth, but the L-N voltage can remain within the 207-253V range - so they're not ideal where there is any other alternative available. Some manufacturers are building in extra checks (like additionally tripping if there's more than 30mA of protective conductor current) - but still the thing won't necessarily disconnect before someone gets a shock.


    Secondly you'd still be connecting the caravan to the DNO's PME earthing facility (when the device hasn't detected a broken PEN) - which the ESQCR has a legal objetion to (OK, technically the legal obligation is on the DNO rather than the consumer, but the DNOs are pretty good at passing the responsibility down via the contractual agreement with the consumer). Yes technically the situation is very similar to charging an EV, but the law (or the wiring regs) hasn't caught up with the technology yet - so it's not much use for a legal and wiring regs compliant solution.


       - Andy.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Andy thank you so much you really have been so helpful and I appricate this as you have gone above and beyond with this subject. I will keep my eye on changes to the magic blue bible. Also like to thank everyone else for joining in thank you all.
  • 0
    Gino:

    Thank you ukpn, maybe I am not explaining myself. I am not talking about a device cutting out anything with DNO. I was looking at a Viridian EV pen loss connection centre. New to market. A solution to not using an earth rod. I have never quoted my self as an fully qualified electrician, but know you guys are as I have an huge interest in this area. 


    I have looked at the web sites which advertise some of these products and they all seem to be very persuasive. I wouldn't stake my life on any of them.


  • 0
    Are caravan outlets permitted in dwellings anyway? Are they not precluded by Regulation 553.1.201? Even an interlocked switch outlet won't comply with that Regulation - although I suppose you could argue that the "use" of the outlet is not "household and similar", or that 708.55.1.1 over-rides or modifies 553.1.201 (which I don't really subscribe to as the scope of Section 708 doesn't really translate well to "hooking up a caravan at home").


    I'm also pretty open-minded on that score, since we're happy with IEC 60320 cable couplers without shutters being used in homes.



    Regardless of all that, and all the rantings about PME, it doesn't change the fact that most camping/caravan outlets, and many other places, readily sell devices like this for a few quid: https://cpc.farnell.com/concordia-technologies/is1053rqw/16a-socket-to-13a-plug/dp/PL15913


    ... and as a result there are loads of caravans on driveways at homes throughout the country supplied by PME networks, almost always connected to a BS 1363 socket-outlet in a garage or on the outside of the home.



    So, what will the "qualified electrician" actually do when asked if they can install a caravan outlet at a dwelling? Well, they'd probably advise two options, or, given the response they've had previously, just say "I can't do that, but I can install an outdoor socket-outlet for you if you like".
  • 0
    gkenyon:

    So, what will the "qualified electrician" actually do when asked if they can install a caravan outlet at a dwelling? Well, they'd probably advise two options, or, given the response they've had previously, just say "I can't do that, but I can install an outdoor socket-outlet for you if you like".


    And take care to describe it as an "outdoor socket-outlet" in the MEIWC.


  • 0
    Chris Pearson:
    gkenyon:

    So, what will the "qualified electrician" actually do when asked if they can install a caravan outlet at a dwelling? Well, they'd probably advise two options, or, given the response they've had previously, just say "I can't do that, but I can install an outdoor socket-outlet for you if you like".


    And take care to describe it as an "outdoor socket-outlet" in the MEIWC.




    Also has the advantage that it can be used by the home owner for the Mode 2 Charging Lead supplied with electric vehicles ?


    Oh Dear !


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Spot on you must be a caravan er. Lol. Appoligies I cannot wait till April 1st to post this. This is what's happening actually. But my initial post was really trying to work out the reg wordings. As I want to make my caravan at home safe. So I was thinking of fitting a hook up box next to my outdoor electricity box where the incomer is and the earth bar for all of home. And knowing that the wire would be inside and no more than 18inches long with no or very little chance of damage plus the benifit that it's also connected to the main earth point where gas /water are all connected. I would have not been asking my apparently DIY questions if I was actually running a swa cable underground and Installing a post at my home. As I know it would have to have an earth rod. The posts from everyone has been really intresting and I have been busy looking into new tech, OK the bs7671 is slower and tech is moving fast. But from what I can see and read the new pen loss systems have been accepted within the rules as they are being rolled out. I have one independant unit that has ct clamps within the unit that monitor pe/l/n and if a pe is missed it cuts off all lines and within the regs.
  • 0
    Gino:

    Spot on you must be a caravan er. Lol. Appoligies I cannot wait till April 1st to post this. This is what's happening actually. But my initial post was really trying to work out the reg wordings. As I want to make my caravan at home safe. So I was thinking of fitting a hook up box next to my outdoor electricity box where the incomer is and the earth bar for all of home. And knowing that the wire would be inside and no more than 18inches long with no or very little chance of damage plus the benifit that it's also connected to the main earth point where gas /water are all connected. I would have not been asking my apparently DIY questions if I was actually running a swa cable underground and Installing a post at my home. As I know it would have to have an earth rod. The posts from everyone has been really intresting and I have been busy looking into new tech, OK the bs7671 is slower and tech is moving fast. But from what I can see and read the new pen loss systems have been accepted within the rules as they are being rolled out. I have one independant unit that has ct clamps within the unit that monitor pe/l/n and if a pe is missed it cuts off all lines and within the regs. 


    It's interesting that, depending on the arrangement of metal pipework around your home, installing an independent earth electrode for the caravan pitch may not achieve an improvement in safety.


    However, I can confirm that it doesn't matter how quickly technology moves on in this particular instance. Unless and until the relevant legislation - Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations - is revised, BS 7671 (and any provisions or guidance from ENA or DNO's) will never allow the connection of a caravan outlet to the earthing terminal in premises supplied from PME, quite simply because Regulation 9(4) does not permit an electricity distributor to connect a PME earthing terminal to a caravan or boat.


    In truth, caravans should not be plugged in at homes with PME earthing arrangements.


  • 0
    Then throw into the mix that whilst camping I have seen motor homes and caravans with two leads supplying them from two 16 amp site supplies at the same time.


    One of my first thoughts when I saw one such arrangement using two pillars on separate pitches was that there is an assumption they are on the same phase, that’s assuming that the motor home users even realise that different pitches may be on different phases when they are running out the extended second extension lead, heaven only knows how the leads are connected internally within the motor home.. ?
  • 0
    gkenyon:.



    In truth, caravans should not be plugged in at homes with PME earthing arrangements.






    From my front window I can see a motor home plugged into an extension lead running from within a house, it’s connected to a PME supply, via a Type AC 30 mA RCD in the consumer unit. I know that because I fitted the consumer unit around ten years ago, long before the neighbours bought the motor home.


    A socket is a socket, what’s the issue? Why would a caravan or motor home user question plugging it into any electric socket?


Join us to get the best from IET EngX.

Joining EngX lets you personalise your experience so you stay up to date on the topics that interest you, plus you’ll be able to make connections who are looking to collaborate, exchange ideas and more.

Join us Not now

Community Rules & Guidelines