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DISTRIBUTOR CANNOT BE TRUSTED...

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Hi folks!


This is my first forum post and hopefully and interesting topic. I am looking for some advice on where to start!

Background:
  1. 4th floor apartment tear-out in the city of Baku, Azerbaijan in a very old Soviet-era building block with unknown amounts of modifications.

  • 4 wire system (3-phase and neutral) entering and distributed throughout the building (no armoured cable / no separate earth).

  • No enforced local regulations as the general wiring in the city is a free-for-all (I am told it should be to PUE 6 standard). I could share many examples but this is not the aim of this post!

  • No building plans available from the council / no wiring / single-line diagrams available for the building or from the distributor.

  • No option available for a reliable survey - Partly being that most of the local electricians think that an earth core is a waste of money!

  • Basically the local distributor cannot be relied upon as can be seen by the photo example of the electrical panel closest to the apartment from the local government electrical company...

  • I am an electrical engineer wanting to get my hands dirty with my own project compliant to the BS 7671 wiring regs. I will design the domestic electrical installation and will have it verified by an (UK) electrician / expat before proceeding and sourcing materials.

Aim:


  1. Brand new domestic apartment electrical installation to BS 7671 18th Edition in which is in my control (full rewire, new consumer unit etc.). BS exceed the local regulations.

  • Keep politics / what-should-be for the incoming panel out of the discussion, it is what it is and there is not much I can do except wait decades for regulations and enforcements to catch up!

  • Provide the safest solution to protect my family without running away from the building / country.

Closest Panel to my Apartment:

  • Ok lets cut to the chase - this may just be the worst panel that you have ever seen however I cannot modify it as it is owned by the local government electrical company. It gets no points for compliance to any regulation (maybe 1 for being metal only!). I unfortunately has to live with this monstrosity until the building is knocked down in the future (and this is one of the newer / better panels in the building believe it or not…1 of 3 panels up to the apartment).

34853545ae5c04645e1bb134ec9267e3-img_1749.pdf


Queries:

  1. Can I assume that the incoming supply is a TN-C-S (and I know this is the distributors responsibility…) i.e. connect the MET and neutral together before the consumer panel? I know we should never assume so what is the best way to test? I am trying to source a Megger. My concern is that this could bypass some protection elsewhere in the building although it appears to have only overcurrent protection (fuses).

  • Should I have a dedicated earth run from the incoming of the building (from the neutral bar) up to the apartment consumer unit instead? My concern is that there my be a potential difference between the neutral and the earth at the apartment which could require 2P RCBOs throughout. Yes there should not be a potential difference however there is a lot of twisted wiring (junction boxes are a luxury…) and poor looking connections as well as all the apartment neutrals connected together in the block.

  • A third option would be to have an earth pit installed in the car park and run the dedicated earth to the MET in the apartment although 2P RCBOs may still be required.



Any assistance is greatly appreciated including verification / testing methods before I dive into the design of the consumer unit. Thank you in advance,


Chris
Parents
  • Are the local sockets actually Schuko (the USA ITA scheme calls that type 'F') or actually the Russian variant with the same hole spacing but thinner pins ?
    Maybe these GOST 7396 type C ?    If you have suffered from jammed and burnt pins, that may be the problem, as the proper Schuko is a very reliable design in the mating socket, apart from the LN polarity not being preserved.  From East Berlin in the early 2000s   I remember the odd Russian socket being a pain as no modern appliance could be plugged in, but the Russian plugs were equally troublesome - making a rather half hearted flickery contact and overheating in the newer sockets,and poor build quality generally. There converting an old  2 pin socket to a new style one with earth was sometimes done with an N-E link on the back of the socket, when the old wiring in the wall was only 2 core.


    I'd be very wary of that sort of TNC to the socket, or even creating a CPC from neutral in the TNC-s way at your CU origin. To make it  safe, great  care  is taken with PME distribution to avoid L-N reversal and open neutral incidents. That rigour would need to be extended to all the neutral connections inside and outside the building between you and the substation. Looking at the pictures, you would have to be very brave to assume this  - and given the shared neutral blocks and random colour nature of the hook-up, at some point when someone else is having wiring done, your supply will suffer !!

    (In UK PME distribution, supply side all neutral joints are either double crimped or have some equivalent level of  redundancy, so that one failure cannot lead to danger. You will struggle to replicate that level of safety) 


    Given the uncertainty about the earthing and the neutral, double insulated (Class 2) appliances are your best friend in such a case, and RCD protection for the unavoidable class 0 (i.e. Class 1 things that really should be earthed and are not).

    Like Andy I think wiring to the letter of BS7671 may not be the best choice without a bit of adjustment - the UK standards assume neutral is at or near earth voltage, and that supply impedances will allow discrimination to work - neither may be good assumptions in the world centred around un-earthed 2 pin wiring.

    And yes, our T and E with its bare earth, and the 32A ring final are not good choices in a country that presumably expects one combined power and socket circuit, and full size CPC.


    The most useful thing you can do consumer unit wise is to have a double pole breaking RCD, and perhaps consider having the sort of thing that is done with 'power of opportunity' military boxes - where to be honest the sources of supply can often look a bit like this. Typically there  is a box that  monitors the incoming supply, to indicate that voltage, L-N polarity, and if required phase rotation are all in range as expected. Depending on the application a fault may just flash some warning lights to raise an alarm, or may operate a 'shunt trip' to throw the power off. Neutral earth voltage is a good one to monitor if you can. If there is any chance of an earth electrode, personally I'd go for that. Be aware that if your earth electrode is better than the one at the substation then an LE fault at your side may actually pull L1 nearer to true earth voltage and at the same time increase the neutral to terra-firma offset voltage for all other users of the substation.

    Mike.

Reply
  • Are the local sockets actually Schuko (the USA ITA scheme calls that type 'F') or actually the Russian variant with the same hole spacing but thinner pins ?
    Maybe these GOST 7396 type C ?    If you have suffered from jammed and burnt pins, that may be the problem, as the proper Schuko is a very reliable design in the mating socket, apart from the LN polarity not being preserved.  From East Berlin in the early 2000s   I remember the odd Russian socket being a pain as no modern appliance could be plugged in, but the Russian plugs were equally troublesome - making a rather half hearted flickery contact and overheating in the newer sockets,and poor build quality generally. There converting an old  2 pin socket to a new style one with earth was sometimes done with an N-E link on the back of the socket, when the old wiring in the wall was only 2 core.


    I'd be very wary of that sort of TNC to the socket, or even creating a CPC from neutral in the TNC-s way at your CU origin. To make it  safe, great  care  is taken with PME distribution to avoid L-N reversal and open neutral incidents. That rigour would need to be extended to all the neutral connections inside and outside the building between you and the substation. Looking at the pictures, you would have to be very brave to assume this  - and given the shared neutral blocks and random colour nature of the hook-up, at some point when someone else is having wiring done, your supply will suffer !!

    (In UK PME distribution, supply side all neutral joints are either double crimped or have some equivalent level of  redundancy, so that one failure cannot lead to danger. You will struggle to replicate that level of safety) 


    Given the uncertainty about the earthing and the neutral, double insulated (Class 2) appliances are your best friend in such a case, and RCD protection for the unavoidable class 0 (i.e. Class 1 things that really should be earthed and are not).

    Like Andy I think wiring to the letter of BS7671 may not be the best choice without a bit of adjustment - the UK standards assume neutral is at or near earth voltage, and that supply impedances will allow discrimination to work - neither may be good assumptions in the world centred around un-earthed 2 pin wiring.

    And yes, our T and E with its bare earth, and the 32A ring final are not good choices in a country that presumably expects one combined power and socket circuit, and full size CPC.


    The most useful thing you can do consumer unit wise is to have a double pole breaking RCD, and perhaps consider having the sort of thing that is done with 'power of opportunity' military boxes - where to be honest the sources of supply can often look a bit like this. Typically there  is a box that  monitors the incoming supply, to indicate that voltage, L-N polarity, and if required phase rotation are all in range as expected. Depending on the application a fault may just flash some warning lights to raise an alarm, or may operate a 'shunt trip' to throw the power off. Neutral earth voltage is a good one to monitor if you can. If there is any chance of an earth electrode, personally I'd go for that. Be aware that if your earth electrode is better than the one at the substation then an LE fault at your side may actually pull L1 nearer to true earth voltage and at the same time increase the neutral to terra-firma offset voltage for all other users of the substation.

    Mike.

Children
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