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DISTRIBUTOR CANNOT BE TRUSTED...

Former Community Member
Former Community Member
Hi folks!


This is my first forum post and hopefully and interesting topic. I am looking for some advice on where to start!

Background:
  1. 4th floor apartment tear-out in the city of Baku, Azerbaijan in a very old Soviet-era building block with unknown amounts of modifications.

  • 4 wire system (3-phase and neutral) entering and distributed throughout the building (no armoured cable / no separate earth).

  • No enforced local regulations as the general wiring in the city is a free-for-all (I am told it should be to PUE 6 standard). I could share many examples but this is not the aim of this post!

  • No building plans available from the council / no wiring / single-line diagrams available for the building or from the distributor.

  • No option available for a reliable survey - Partly being that most of the local electricians think that an earth core is a waste of money!

  • Basically the local distributor cannot be relied upon as can be seen by the photo example of the electrical panel closest to the apartment from the local government electrical company...

  • I am an electrical engineer wanting to get my hands dirty with my own project compliant to the BS 7671 wiring regs. I will design the domestic electrical installation and will have it verified by an (UK) electrician / expat before proceeding and sourcing materials.

Aim:


  1. Brand new domestic apartment electrical installation to BS 7671 18th Edition in which is in my control (full rewire, new consumer unit etc.). BS exceed the local regulations.

  • Keep politics / what-should-be for the incoming panel out of the discussion, it is what it is and there is not much I can do except wait decades for regulations and enforcements to catch up!

  • Provide the safest solution to protect my family without running away from the building / country.

Closest Panel to my Apartment:

  • Ok lets cut to the chase - this may just be the worst panel that you have ever seen however I cannot modify it as it is owned by the local government electrical company. It gets no points for compliance to any regulation (maybe 1 for being metal only!). I unfortunately has to live with this monstrosity until the building is knocked down in the future (and this is one of the newer / better panels in the building believe it or not…1 of 3 panels up to the apartment).

34853545ae5c04645e1bb134ec9267e3-img_1749.pdf


Queries:

  1. Can I assume that the incoming supply is a TN-C-S (and I know this is the distributors responsibility…) i.e. connect the MET and neutral together before the consumer panel? I know we should never assume so what is the best way to test? I am trying to source a Megger. My concern is that this could bypass some protection elsewhere in the building although it appears to have only overcurrent protection (fuses).

  • Should I have a dedicated earth run from the incoming of the building (from the neutral bar) up to the apartment consumer unit instead? My concern is that there my be a potential difference between the neutral and the earth at the apartment which could require 2P RCBOs throughout. Yes there should not be a potential difference however there is a lot of twisted wiring (junction boxes are a luxury…) and poor looking connections as well as all the apartment neutrals connected together in the block.

  • A third option would be to have an earth pit installed in the car park and run the dedicated earth to the MET in the apartment although 2P RCBOs may still be required.



Any assistance is greatly appreciated including verification / testing methods before I dive into the design of the consumer unit. Thank you in advance,


Chris
Parents
  • I'm glad to see you are wearing gloves ? I hope there is someone with you in case you slip with all that exposed live in the box given the complete lack of any protection from the installation itself - I presume the camera operator is briefed on 1st aid ?

    I also see you have slipped into the local practice of stuffing the wire ends into the socket to test the lamp. This is scarily like the roughest bits of ost Berlin just after the wall came down, the difference is that in the last 30 odd years that stuff has all been demolished or modernised. (and there red was the earth and black live, usually, but not always.)


    Please don't be upset if it seems  I'm teasing you a little bit but I have a serious message - I hope we both know that in the UK  the H & S folk would be having kittens, and this really is not the sort of thing to be undertaken alone or anything other than wide awake and on a good footing in dry shoes.  I might wear also a long sleeved cotton shirt in your place. Consider that if something does go snackle pop in your hand and showers you with hot metal it may be the difference between needing a new shirt and needing a skin graft to your wrist and forearm.  It only needs something to fall onto the incomer terminals...  Even with skeleton substations in the UK, the DNOs now like to see big rubberised sheets draped over the live bits when folk have to work near them on anything else to reduce the risk of things falling into the works.


    Now to the results.

    Nice to see that some things are earthed, even if the gas main is not really what you want as the only reliable electrode (!!), this result also shows that your substation has an earth as well, which in the circumstances is a good thing to have verified. Normally it goes without saying, but maybe not here.

    The impedances to the building re-bar are more than a bit  underwhelming really, so that is clearly not going to serve as a main electrode.


    I guess the next one to think about is your water pump - is the incoming service pipe metal ?


    Edit sorry, did not answer the original question.

    To a small electrode I'd  consider 6mm or 4mm as a minimum - as noted below the resistance of the soil dominates, so the cable size is really set by the mechanics of not getting damaged by rats or the gardener, and not being so big as to look  attractive to thieves. To things that may have an NE bond elsewhere like the water pipes,  for your 32A supply, there is little point in anything more than 10 or 16mm2. Your whole intent is to have double pole breaking RCD cover, so a large enough N-E  diverted current to damage the cable is unlikely even in fault from your side.

    You cannot sensibly protect against a fault current coming up the gas pipe and going down the water that is not from your installation, do not try to, just position the bonding for those paths so that if it gets hot it does no damage, and it is likely to be spotted.

    I'm well aware that this is not matching the guidance for the UK, by a large margin, but what we need here is safety, not blindly following inappropriate rules


    Mike.
Reply
  • I'm glad to see you are wearing gloves ? I hope there is someone with you in case you slip with all that exposed live in the box given the complete lack of any protection from the installation itself - I presume the camera operator is briefed on 1st aid ?

    I also see you have slipped into the local practice of stuffing the wire ends into the socket to test the lamp. This is scarily like the roughest bits of ost Berlin just after the wall came down, the difference is that in the last 30 odd years that stuff has all been demolished or modernised. (and there red was the earth and black live, usually, but not always.)


    Please don't be upset if it seems  I'm teasing you a little bit but I have a serious message - I hope we both know that in the UK  the H & S folk would be having kittens, and this really is not the sort of thing to be undertaken alone or anything other than wide awake and on a good footing in dry shoes.  I might wear also a long sleeved cotton shirt in your place. Consider that if something does go snackle pop in your hand and showers you with hot metal it may be the difference between needing a new shirt and needing a skin graft to your wrist and forearm.  It only needs something to fall onto the incomer terminals...  Even with skeleton substations in the UK, the DNOs now like to see big rubberised sheets draped over the live bits when folk have to work near them on anything else to reduce the risk of things falling into the works.


    Now to the results.

    Nice to see that some things are earthed, even if the gas main is not really what you want as the only reliable electrode (!!), this result also shows that your substation has an earth as well, which in the circumstances is a good thing to have verified. Normally it goes without saying, but maybe not here.

    The impedances to the building re-bar are more than a bit  underwhelming really, so that is clearly not going to serve as a main electrode.


    I guess the next one to think about is your water pump - is the incoming service pipe metal ?


    Edit sorry, did not answer the original question.

    To a small electrode I'd  consider 6mm or 4mm as a minimum - as noted below the resistance of the soil dominates, so the cable size is really set by the mechanics of not getting damaged by rats or the gardener, and not being so big as to look  attractive to thieves. To things that may have an NE bond elsewhere like the water pipes,  for your 32A supply, there is little point in anything more than 10 or 16mm2. Your whole intent is to have double pole breaking RCD cover, so a large enough N-E  diverted current to damage the cable is unlikely even in fault from your side.

    You cannot sensibly protect against a fault current coming up the gas pipe and going down the water that is not from your installation, do not try to, just position the bonding for those paths so that if it gets hot it does no damage, and it is likely to be spotted.

    I'm well aware that this is not matching the guidance for the UK, by a large margin, but what we need here is safety, not blindly following inappropriate rules


    Mike.
Children
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