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Number of luminaires on a lighting circuit – new house

Dave Stevenson

Hi,


I am doing a provisional lighting layout for a new house which will use LED lamps throughout. (The final electrical design will be done by the building contractor, but I want to get things right in the design brief  that I give him and want to make sure that I’m not giving him “guidelines” that are not possible to meet.)


The intent is that there will be separate circuits for the ground and first floors, but that additional circuits should not be required. As all of the luminaires will be using low power, mains voltage, LEDs, predominantly downlights, I don’t think there is any concern around exceeding the current capacity of the (1.0 or 1.5mm2) cable and a 6A RCD.


The only issue that I could see is the electrical designer raising is the guidelines in the 2018 On-Site guide in Appendix on Maximum Demand and Diversity. The Appendix is marked as “Guidance Only” but I am concerned that it would be easy for the contactor to just take compliance with it as the easy way out.


Table A1 gives the assumed current demand for a lighting circuit to be 100W per lighting outlet (I guess from when 100W incandescents were the norm), that would be around 12 luminaires or 18 allowing for the diversity in Table A2. (The section does say that “The values given in Table A2, therefore, may be increased or decreased as decided by the installation designer concerned.”)  With LED downlighters everywhere, there will be around 60 luminaires with a load around 300W. (One could take the view that a new owner could replace all the LEDs with 100W fittings, but I think that would be an unreasonable argument.)


Other than arguments around inconvenience should the circuit trip, would it be unreasonable to ask the designer to implement a singe circuit for these loads? (Assuming of course, that the voltage drop was within spec.)


As an aside, is there any reason that external lights could not be on the same RCD protected circuit as the rest of the floor?


Regards

Dave

 


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Zoomup:
    Weirdbeard:
    Zoomup:

    Modern L.E.D. lights often cause a large current surge (inrush current)  when first turned on. This has to be considered.


     


    Hi zoomup, is that theoretical heresay or do you know of any actual cases where is has been a problem?




    Hello, it is a well established fact Weirdbeard.


    Z.




    Hi zoomup, although not domestic:
    https://communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/27010?post_id=149029#p149029

     


  • 0
    Weirdbeard:
    Zoomup:

    Modern L.E.D. lights often cause a large current surge (inrush current)  when first turned on. This has to be considered.


     


    Hi zoomup, is that theoretical heresay or do you know of any actual cases where is has been a problem?




    In the early days certain manufacturers had recommended number of fittings due to inrush currents. Personally I’ve never had a problem unlike toroidal transformers. 


  • 0
    I got called out a few weeks ago where the customer was defrosting her freezer and the easiest way to do it was flick off the circuit breaker as the socket was not accessible. CU was high level so she couldn't see properly and she was probably in her 70s. Whilst doing it she accidentally knocked off the lighting breaker.  She couldn't reset the lighting breaker because all of her kitchen lights were on and the inrush current was banging out the B6. I did try and explain over the phone but ended up having to go and show her.  I didn't count how many down lights there were but quite a big room so 12-16 would be my guess with 3 switches.   This wasn't my design by the way i just took an educated guess as to what was happening before having to go along and have a look.  



    Gary
  • 0
    First, we had oil lamps and candles, which gave a point of light. The latter could dangle from the ceiling in quantity and either could be fixed to the wall.


    Then we had gas lamps, but the mantles were still a point of light.


    Initially with leccy we had what Grandma called "globes" which were still a point of light. Later we had fluorescent tubes for working areas, and discharge lamps for factories.


    That has all changed now. Apart from the low power consumption, LEDs have freed us from the physical constraints of traditional luminaires. My personal view is that good lighting design is not easy - the issue is getting the right quantity in the right place.
  • 0


    I was looking at some 5w downlights in the Electric Centre some months ago that only allowed a maximum of 8 fittings per circuit, so be wary of which fittings you're using and the number of circuits required to accommodate them.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    aligarjon:

    I got called out a few weeks ago where the customer was defrosting her freezer and the easiest way to do it was flick off the circuit breaker as the socket was not accessible. CU was high level so she couldn't see properly and she was probably in her 70s. Whilst doing it she accidentally knocked off the lighting breaker.  She couldn't reset the lighting breaker because all of her kitchen lights were on and the inrush current was banging out the B6. I did try and explain over the phone but ended up having to go and show her.  I didn't count how many down lights there were but quite a big room so 12-16 would be my guess with 3 switches.   This wasn't my design by the way i just took an educated guess as to what was happening before having to go along and have a look.  



    Gary


    Thanks for the info Gary.


  • 0
    davezawadi (David Stone):

    ............... and a 16A if you use 1.5 cable. No problem there then.


    Years ago good quality G.L.S. incandescent lamps had internal fuses to operate if the lamp filament shorted, thus saving the 5 Amp lighting circuit fuse from blowing.


    Now we have lighting circuits feeding energy saving efficient L.E.D.  lamps, where the circuit could feed a 3kW immersion heater. So, are individual L.E.D. fittings internally fused or otherwise protected, if an internal fault occurs, to prevent fire or other dangers?

    LED LIGHTS FIRE HAZARD AND ELECTROCUTION RISK, EBAY CHINESE LED LAMPS - YouTube


    Z.



     


  • 0
    Zoomup:
    davezawadi (David Stone):

    ............... and a 16A if you use 1.5 cable. No problem there then.


    Years ago good quality G.L.S. incandescent lamps had internal fuses to operate if the lamp filament shorted, thus saving the 5 Amp lighting circuit fuse from blowing.


    Now we have lighting circuits feeding energy saving efficient L.E.D.  lamps, where the circuit could feed a 3kW immersion heater. So, are individual L.E.D. fittings internally fused or otherwise protected, if an internal fault occurs, to prevent fire or other dangers?

    LED LIGHTS FIRE HAZARD AND ELECTROCUTION RISK, EBAY CHINESE LED LAMPS - YouTube


    Z.



     




    Plus this historical report.....

    https://www.brightmanled.com/led-news/cheap-led-products-outlawed-eu-due-serious-fire-risk/


    Z.


  • 0
    T.V. L.E.D. burnout plus P.S.U. damage.

    Led Backlites caught on Fire. Samsung UN60H6300. - Bing video


    Z.
  • 0
    I know you are always very aware of fire Z, but this is ridiculous. You need to realise that LED power supplies are inherently fire resistant in several ways. The components used are very small, they are often the fastest fuses known to man, and cannot dissipate many watts without vapourising. To start a fire one needs significant power dissipation but this is close to impossible with these items, at perhaps 5W maximum, and if anything goes short circuit (which it almost certainly will) the current will trip the circuit OPD. Followed logically your idea of close fusing for everything leads to a large number of final circuits, perhaps 50 for a houseful of downlighters, which is quite ridiculous and is an increased risk due to other factors as well as being enormously expensive, perhaps 50 AFDDs needed! Electrical fires are a tiny risk in most modern properties and are quite rare, that is why buildings insurance is very cheap (£100-150) for reasonably sized properties. A bigger electrical installation is offset by the risk, which is much reduced with LEDs anyway as they do not produce much heat compared to incandescent lamps.


    The backlights caught fire is not in the order you say, it is PSU fault damages backlights, not the other way around. LEDs often fail open circuit anyway, again the power is high compared to the semiconductor size, in other words, similar to a fuse. Poor quality imports should not be used as examples, they are probably inherently unsatisfactory, and illegally CE and other standards marked.

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