Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 17 replies
  • Subscribers 34 subscribers
  • Views 1501 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

New Thread

ebee

Rather than hijack an existing thread I thought a new thread might better serve.

A few times I have stated my dislike of the way some folk few acceptance of installations undertaken to earlier editions of our "Regs" being compared to installtions being done very recently.

For those of you (if any) who are not aware of my stance I will repeat it (Yes again, sorry folks).

When doing an EICR/PIR a defect is noted and if that defect was compliant at the time of the actual install then some would not code it at all or perhaps code it more leniently.

I say this is very silly.

A defect should be recorded and if you think it sufficiently impacts on "safety"  (relative safety reallY) then should be coded as appropriate.

We I & T to todays standard and compare it to that.

We might reasonably consider how safe/unsafe we perceive it to be if we compare it to things past.

Those of us who are older and remember earlier Editions of Regs might ,admitadley, be less severe with our coding than a more newbie electrician. That should not be the case but in reality it might well be. We often use that as a mental reference to effect our perception of "safety".

However, no relevance in coding different outcomes should ever be based purely upon the install date (therefore Reg Edition in force at that particular time). It must be purely based on how it compares with our standards now.

So quick answers as to what items we would have not felt aprehensive about in days gone but might concern us a bit more nowadays?

I`ll start of with inclusion of RCDs and Bonding presence/sizing.

Any more?

Parents
  • 0

    Well I certainly hesitated before replying - All of the comments below are going to create controversy. Yes all of the below will create a better installation, but when they're not there due to age of install………….. 

    My current biggest annoyances are all on the modern insistence on:

    1. RCDs for everything - there's often ways to design out the need to install an RCD……Many circuits that lack RCDs are not going to suddenly kill everyone who approaches. As ebee has said though this is maybe because we didn't used to fit millions of RCD everywhere and it was fine.
    2. Type A RCDs……..is the current buzz word in fashionable electrics on line in chat rooms ---- I don't even know where to start here (IMO obviously) I understand that these items detect DC leakage, but if you've got an installation with no expectation of DC leakage (Your common household with no EV or multiple Variable speed drives for example) - A type AC RCD is surely absolutely fine. I hover around a face book group that's very much pushing forwards this idea that type AC RCDs need coding and are somehow a safety issue. (The contributors in the forum, not the forum its self) A Few LED lights and a TV don't count either (IMO) for expected dangerous levels of DC leakage in an installation.
    3. Surge Protection - every where - its becoming more affordable so its easier to fit but somehow the lack of these things is becoming a safety issue all over the show.
    4. AFDDs. Well hell- I cant yet bring myself to believe these are going to solve all our ills. But coming to a regs book near you, they are……….
    5. Plastic fuse boards - they're not so bad - surely? Metal is better, but a good condition plastic DB - it OK still……
    6. Clearly I don't respond to fires and shocks/deaths caused by all of the above though and understand the reasons for creaping change; those more affected by, or more sold on the idea of infinite safety for every situation will far different to myself.
    7. And as for no RCD protection for sockets likely to supply out door plug in equipment in a typical household environment, I cant think of a single item I've owned in the last 20 years that wasn't class 2 anyway, but am aware that class 1 exists, obviously, and that reg has been around for so long that I recon any inspector would have to code 2 now, even - in my case - with a big sigh and a grimace. But then a socket outlet with RCD built on it is somehow no longer acceptable, I've heard all the reasons why - sigh - really - this them opens up the need to RCD the circuit, which leads to - it cant fit in this DB, which leads to an easy sale of - a new DB is required etc etc………and accusations of incompetence and cowboyery. (I often understand how the chain of logic leads to unnecessary DB changes for example). I've heard guys chase their tail around and around, until the only conclusion they can come up with is - do everything and then there's a safe installation done, with no one to argue differently.
    8. Office sockets - especially floor boxes supplying desks - requiring RCD protection through out and all the difficulties that brings, because all of the costs to rectify this problem in bulk are huge…..
    9. Sockets in ceiling voids of offices supplying anything from TVs to AV equipment etc, not available for common use as they're above the ceiling and 3m up, requiring RCDs etc etc. The need to RCD all sockets in every situation is a real pain in my aris. Server Racks. Even the clause of a risk assessment, in all of the environments I work in, no one is will to put their name to a risk assessment that says a safety feature may be left out, because that's not the mentality of health and safety professionals. Sigh……
    10. In new installs and in changes - it all gets done to the last dot and dash I assure you; I don't have to like it or not,,,,,, but sigh…..its all becoming a lot overboard. Isn't it?
    11. Kind Regards. Tatty.

     

Reply
  • 0

    Well I certainly hesitated before replying - All of the comments below are going to create controversy. Yes all of the below will create a better installation, but when they're not there due to age of install………….. 

    My current biggest annoyances are all on the modern insistence on:

    1. RCDs for everything - there's often ways to design out the need to install an RCD……Many circuits that lack RCDs are not going to suddenly kill everyone who approaches. As ebee has said though this is maybe because we didn't used to fit millions of RCD everywhere and it was fine.
    2. Type A RCDs……..is the current buzz word in fashionable electrics on line in chat rooms ---- I don't even know where to start here (IMO obviously) I understand that these items detect DC leakage, but if you've got an installation with no expectation of DC leakage (Your common household with no EV or multiple Variable speed drives for example) - A type AC RCD is surely absolutely fine. I hover around a face book group that's very much pushing forwards this idea that type AC RCDs need coding and are somehow a safety issue. (The contributors in the forum, not the forum its self) A Few LED lights and a TV don't count either (IMO) for expected dangerous levels of DC leakage in an installation.
    3. Surge Protection - every where - its becoming more affordable so its easier to fit but somehow the lack of these things is becoming a safety issue all over the show.
    4. AFDDs. Well hell- I cant yet bring myself to believe these are going to solve all our ills. But coming to a regs book near you, they are……….
    5. Plastic fuse boards - they're not so bad - surely? Metal is better, but a good condition plastic DB - it OK still……
    6. Clearly I don't respond to fires and shocks/deaths caused by all of the above though and understand the reasons for creaping change; those more affected by, or more sold on the idea of infinite safety for every situation will far different to myself.
    7. And as for no RCD protection for sockets likely to supply out door plug in equipment in a typical household environment, I cant think of a single item I've owned in the last 20 years that wasn't class 2 anyway, but am aware that class 1 exists, obviously, and that reg has been around for so long that I recon any inspector would have to code 2 now, even - in my case - with a big sigh and a grimace. But then a socket outlet with RCD built on it is somehow no longer acceptable, I've heard all the reasons why - sigh - really - this them opens up the need to RCD the circuit, which leads to - it cant fit in this DB, which leads to an easy sale of - a new DB is required etc etc………and accusations of incompetence and cowboyery. (I often understand how the chain of logic leads to unnecessary DB changes for example). I've heard guys chase their tail around and around, until the only conclusion they can come up with is - do everything and then there's a safe installation done, with no one to argue differently.
    8. Office sockets - especially floor boxes supplying desks - requiring RCD protection through out and all the difficulties that brings, because all of the costs to rectify this problem in bulk are huge…..
    9. Sockets in ceiling voids of offices supplying anything from TVs to AV equipment etc, not available for common use as they're above the ceiling and 3m up, requiring RCDs etc etc. The need to RCD all sockets in every situation is a real pain in my aris. Server Racks. Even the clause of a risk assessment, in all of the environments I work in, no one is will to put their name to a risk assessment that says a safety feature may be left out, because that's not the mentality of health and safety professionals. Sigh……
    10. In new installs and in changes - it all gets done to the last dot and dash I assure you; I don't have to like it or not,,,,,, but sigh…..its all becoming a lot overboard. Isn't it?
    11. Kind Regards. Tatty.

     

Children
No Data

Community Rules & Guidelines