perspicacious: More so, Reg 651.4 requires: Details of any damage, deterioration, defects or dangerous conditions shall be recorded in a report.
Good point! As far as I am aware, my installation has not been damaged and it has not deteriorated (though I have not inspected every inch of it). If there were any defects, they should have been picked up on initial verification. There is no reason to believe that any of it is dangerous.
Age per se is no reason to condemn an installation, but I do accept that there must be limits. I think that we simply don't know the lifespan of PVC cables so it might well be that a 60 year old installation is perfectly safe.
We see all sorts of horrors in here and elsewhere. They seem to arise from bad installation in the first place or inappropriate extension, but not age.
653.2 requires only reporting on any non-compliance with the requirements of B.S. 7671 WHICH MAY GIVE RISE TO DANGER. (Caps. mine) Z.
It appears your copy of the 18th is non compliant Z, as the actual text reads:
The Report shall include the following:
details of those parts of the installation that have been inspected and tested
any limitations of the inspection and testing
any damage, deterioration, defects or dangerous conditions
any non-compliance with the requirements of BS 7671 which may give rise to danger
schedules of inspection as appropriate to those detailed in Section 642
schedules of results of the appropriate tests detailed in Section 643
More so, Reg 651.4 requires: Details of any damage, deterioration, defects or dangerous conditions shall be recorded in a report.
Note the requirement for defect reporting is given equal status.
Regards
BOD
Under the heading of “Satisfactory for continued use”, I was referring only to the part of the regulation that refers to aspects “THAT MAY GIVE RISE TO DANGER.” Readers can refer to the complete regulation for associated information as you well know, that is why I quoted the regulation number.
My full post….
That should presumably be taken as a legal precedent that forty year old installations are unlikely to be classed as satisfactory on an EICR?
Andy B.
So what is 651.2 NOTE 2 all about then?
"……this does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe" Presumably meaning that they are “satisfactory for continued use.”
My home electrics are older than 40 years and present no immediate danger.
Perhaps in the eyes of the inspector it did comply with 651.2. (i) to (vi).
653.2 requires only reporting on any non-compliance with the requirements of B.S. 7671 WHICH MAY GIVE RISE TO DANGER. (Caps. mine)
To give it a bit of context a forty year old installation was installed around 1981, so it should have complied with the 14th or 15th edition of the Wiring Regulations and a VOELCB was still acceptable to protect a TT earthed installation rather than a RCD.
Who mentioned a TT supply? In the early 80s we were well into P.M.E. earthing.
I see another problem showing its head here. There are two groups, one that is capable of making their own assessment and one that is incapable of doing so. This can probably be approximated to “I can decide if the installation is safe for continued use”, and "this installation does not meet every detail of the latest regulations so must be replaced completely". From this, it is immediately obvious that the first group think that they understand the necessary nuances of professional judgement, but the second are simply " box tickers". I can and will relate this directly to competence, the first is and the second is not, immediately obvious from inference.
The old 2391 attempted to sort these two groups, if one knew the basic theory and practice it was not “hard”, the pass mark was 65%ish percent but the pass rate was very low, somewhere around 15% for most classes. Due to some more box tickers (persons that do not understand the purpose of an examination) the exam was reduced to a trivial exercise in basic electrical trade skills, with many references to “standard designs” (The OSG), a good book but never intended to be the standard required for proper inspection. It should be noted at this point that very few candidates OWNED a copy of BS7671, or had read and UNDERSTOOD it.
Clearly, this is the disaster area we now have, particularly as the Government has seen fit to regulate inspection of private rented dwellings. I am disappointed at many of the questions raised here from Electricians running their own businesses. Many show a lack of understanding of basic science, but I am not surprised, this has been equally “dumbed down” in schools, again because it is “too difficult”. The next lot of questions usually relate to failure to read and UNDERSTAND BS7671, easy answers. The next group wants to understand the nuances found in places in the regs. Fair enough that is perfectly understandable, because some parts are not at all simple. The last part is based on misunderstanding and fear. This is always knowledge of what happens if cables are operated at currents higher than the tabulated values for short periods, an inherent part of electrical systems. You know what happens because it is normal in your car wiring, the ratings used for cable sizes are considerably higher than BS7671 tables. because the designer understands cable ratings, the effects of bunching, the importance of time, and thermal mass. It is these things that produce good electrical designs, that are safe yet economic. It is very easy to design something that uses all possible worst-case values for everything, it is very much more difficult to design a sensible and economic design.
Enough for now, but I suggest this as homework, why do the things I said above matter, and where do you see them in action?
Sadly, I believe this is only going to get worse. We regularly see new entrants into the industry obtaining the current (practically worthless) 2391 with no experience at all, for the express purpose of ‘doing landlord certs’. As always, regulation with good intent has produced the unintended and perverse outcome that you are FAR more likely to have work carried out by the incompetent than otherwise.
Hi, so what verification would you suggest, in doing a CCU change, would be suitable, (if the 2391 is of little use)?
Compliance with 641.1 is essential. It shall be undertaken by a qualified, experienced and skilled person, preferable a qualified time served electrician.
“Every installation shall, during erection and on completion before being put into service, be inspected and tested to verify, so far as is reasonable, that the requirements of the Regulations have been met.”
After major work like a consumer unit change full inspection and testing is required of the whole installation.
The new City & Guilds 2391-52 course is the new Inspection & Testing Combined Course that replaces and is improved on the former 2394/2395 that was previously available to electricians but has since been withdrawn. This testing course now has an open book assessment, meaning you can now check tables during the assessment, as you would in a real-life scenario.
This City & Guilds 2391-52 course runs over five consecutive days, the first three days covering fundamental theory.
The fourth day covers Initial Verification practical and revision.
The fifth day of the City & Guilds 2391-52 course covers Periodic Inspection practical and revision with an open book 2 hours Multiple choice exam.
This is a 5 day City & Guilds 2391-52 course for students possessing knowledge of the wiring regulations and with minimal knowledge of inspection and testing of electrical installations. We strongly recommend City and Guilds 2382 is achieved prior to sitting this course, though this is NOT an entry requirement.
To claim the full City & Guilds 2391-52 qualification, students must successfully complete the following:
Each student will sit a 2 hours online multiple-choice open book exam (sat during the course.)
Students must reattend and complete a 4 hour long practical assessment.
Practical Assessment – 2391-52
Task A – Visual Inspection – 30mins
Task B – Periodic Inspection and Test – 2hrs and 30mins
Task C – Short Answer Questions – 1hr and 20mins
Once the above is completed, an award in initial verification and periodic inspection will be achieved and qualification will be provided. Electricians will then be fully competent and qualified to carry out Inspection and Testing on electrical installations – a 2391 award is also required to join Part P schemes and gain a JIB gold card, making this course a high priority in your electrical training.
To further support this course, we offer a 1-day practical workshop (at the cost of £120.00 Net VAT) available to candidates who have completed the course and require further ‘hands-on’ practical experience prior to their practical exam. Most students who take this option elect to complete this the day before their practical assessment.
AH, another nice moneymaking ‘course’ that covers… what we already know!
Sparkingchip: That should presumably be taken as a legal precedent that forty year old installations are unlikely to be classed as satisfactory on an EICR?
Well, I give my 1982 installation a C3 for no RCD protection overall (some sockets have it) but then again, it was installed well and has not been messed about.
Er, Chris… what would my 43 year old, (times two Wylex CCUs, ((1 x 4 way & 1 x 6 way)), installations, without any such RCD protection PLUS, hahaha, the majority are 3036's!! NEVER had a problem PLUS the metal CCUs' are as strong as a tank?
Milford Haven eh? It looks like a nice civilised place that would have good earthing supplied to its homes.
My profile picture is me sat outside the cafe on The Strand in Saundersfoot when I went over to do a job in Milford Haven and booked a B&B in Saundersfoot so I could do a another job on the way back, been there done that. The electrical installation was dire, in addition to what I actually went to do the customer asked me to sort out the lighting that had been installed for a loft conversion on the stairs and landing, because the decorator had had a go at replacing the light switches with blingy polished chrome switches and they did not work, the guy who had wired the loft conversion lights had bought a roll of 3C&E and used it for everything, I wasn’t surprised the decorator lost the plot, I took all the fittings off then sorted and oversleeved the conductors, earthing the unused conductors then refitted the switches, all for a cup of tea and a biscuit.
So from personal experience I cannot say standards are high over there, but then the standard isn’t particularly high anywhere in England and Wales, so I don’t know why anyone would be surprised.
I was back over that way a few weeks ago and the earthing system on the overhead cables is TNS, but that hasn’t been used the installation is TT earthed, as I commented in another discussion. There are things over there which you don’t see in the rest of the UK, but you really need to get a grip on just how old some of the suppliers and installation cabling and equipment really is throughout the UK. I see installations that were genuinely installed before the war in the 1930’s and 40’s with original equipment and cables still in use.
The relevance being that when you go into do an EICR you cannot be complacent and make assumptions that it will be okay based on first impressions, you need to get a general feeling about the quality and condition of the existing installation, then home in on alterations such as for a loft conversion and kitchen replacement.
