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Low Speed and High speed Motor problem

HI All

My turn to need some help........

I have a three phase, 11.5KW motor complete with contactors etc in the MCC. (It was 8.5KW three phase motor and its been upgraded to an 11.5KW three phase motor with some upgrade of wiring, contactors etc - all works carried out by myself - so I cant blame anyone else - from design calcuations and cable sizes to specification of the contactors etc - installed by myself too, so I cant blame anyone else for this either. 

This motor has Three contactors, as is usual with star/delta, and, as usual, with two contactors working together (! &3 in this case with the shorting out bit on top of contactor 3) and one contactor working alone. (Contactor 2). 

This is wired - I'm very sure - in a typical star/delta set up but with no time clock. It is - I know - different to star/delta and is a high speed/low speed motor control.

Both Contactor 1 and contactor 2 have overload protection as this motor can be run in Low Speed or in High speed and left in that mode for indefinite periods of time. 

I'm virtually certain that the links in the motor should be removed all together and I have done so. 

The controls are not apparently trend for the contactor control circuit, but Trend does the flow switches, dampers, filters etc and in auto must play a part in start stop functions and high speed/low speed functions. 

I'm fairly certain that the door switch high and low speed do not use the trend controls - its in hand effectively. (Four options on the Door switch selector  - High speed, Low speed, Off, auto). 

Any way

- This motor functions in High speed (Contactors 1 and 3 in a typical star/delta set up) probably proving that I have connected up the motor winding correctly. I'm certain I have.

Motor Direction is obviously correct too. 

- This motor does not do anything in Low speed function - even though contactor 2 engages - when the low speed door switch function is selected - and voltage passes through contactor 2, to the motor (the motor receives power from the MCC, through the windings and - inevitably back to the MCC at the bottom of contactor 1.) The motor does zero. I feel the circuit is incomplete.

Now - if I were to only wire this motor in (Delta?) winding - slow speed - I'd install the links into the motor -3 of - I feel these links are missing - in the MCC 

In high speed - (star?) winding - the motor links are provided by contactor 3 which is linked out at the top of contactor 3 - when contactor 1 pulls in - contactor 3 pulls in and a circuit is formed. 

I hope I have my star delta descriptions correct? I get them mixed up.

I'm missing something very fundamental and elementary here - I know I am - please do inbox me if you think you can help as I feel this forum might prove difficult to diagnose a something stupid on my part.

I'm near Woking, Surrey and the job is in Epping Forest, London and is a swimming pools main AHU air handling Supply motor.

I very seldom, these days, get to do star/delta motors and clearly, don't understand high speed/low speed motors. 

Kind Regards

Tatty

  • Is the motor a standard type of three phase induction motor ? If yes, then it cant be wired to run at two different speeds.

    The purpose of star delta connections is to start in star, thereby limiting the starting current, and to run in delta for full power operation. Alternatively it enables the same motor to be used on two different voltages. If each winding is 230 volts then it may be used on a 3 phase 230 volt system, rare in the UK but popular overseas, or it may be used on a 230/400 volt system.

    If each winding is 400 volts then it may be run in delta on a 230/400 volt system, or in star on a a 400/690 volt system.

    For two speed operation you need either a special motor, with two sets of windings designed for different speeds, or more likely these days, a standard motor connected to a variable frequency drive.

  • The speed difference between Star (slower but higher torque, ideal for starting) and Delta (bit faster and lower current) isn't going to be that much where I would class one as low speed really. You say you have 1 & 3 switching on start up, then it reads like only 2 is engaged in slow speed mode (which if your trying to make this Delta would actually be high speed). 1 should also be engaged as well or have I just read that wrong?

  • Star Delta Starter Explained - Working Principle - Bing video

    Z.

  • Speed torque......

    The Speed Torque Curves for a Star-Delta Starter, 28/9/2016 - YouTube

    Z.

  • The motor does zero. I feel the circuit is incomplete.

    Or possibly lines have been swapped around - so that one winding has say L1 at both ends, another winding L2 at both ends and ones L3 at both ends? Motor then 'has power' but no p.d. across any winding so would do nothing.

       - Andy.

  • Any chance of a circuit of what you have wired ?  - photo of a back of a (large ! ) envelope sketch of the 3 or 6 motor windings  and associated contacts would be fine, and also the make or model of the motor. And, ideally, a photo of the winding ends inside the motor wiring box.

    Unless the high low is more of a torque setting than a speed (and on a pool pump torque changing may be what you need) then Star-delta is not the right sort of motor, S-D does not change the speed as such.

    For true dual speed the  only kind of motor is  a specially wound one that can be altered to behave in two ways, to change say between say 2 and 4 poles per revolution,  (or 4 and 8) and that involves rather more winding ends in the box  than a normal one.

    A normal star-delta always energises the poles at the same rate, it just changes the voltages reaching those windings from 230 during spin up to 400V during run, a true dual speed is something else as the no of poles per rotation is also changed.. A vari-pole motor is not Star-delta, though it looks casually like it and the fast slow switching has much in common.

    Even before VFDs were available those were unusual and mainly turned up only in washing machines and at lower powers than this. Nowadays a simple 3 winding motor and  a VFD is more common.

    Rare, but it still may be.
    The clue is that there are twice as many ends of windings in the box (12 ends not 6 but still 6 terminals) so that pairs of poles may be energized together in the slow speed as one double width pseudo pole and 
    slewed between phases in the fast mode. This wiring illustration may explain better. Note there are two approaches, one gives a more or less constant torque at both speeds, and the other a more or less constant power  (high torque at low speed), as when the poles are excited as pairs, they may be // or series. If it is not just  S-D then closer than normal attention to the maker's data may be needed.

    Mike.

  • The motor windings would have been wound for Star or Delta connection and importantly - to run at the same speeds; the current, torque and hence kW rating will vary though; by 1/3 on each type of connection winding. If the transition time was too lengthy, the speed and torque will fall unduly, causing stall; likewise, if the starting torque is too great.

    As I recall the noo, this type of motor was designed to reduce the physical size of a D.O.L. motor - (physical mass for heat dissipation/expense), in accommodating the required starting torque.  

    Jaymack

  • Sounds like the original may have been a Dahlander motor and the replacement is a standard star delta. Both 6 wire with 3 contactors but the winding arrangement is different in the motor.

  • Thanks, Dahlander - that's the name ..  age is a marvelous thing, but for the life of me I can't remember why. See in low speed that the poles are magnetised as pairs of the same polarity to emulate a single larger pole.

    Be aware that the wiring may vary.

    Not quite star delta....

    Pole windings energizing sequencing around armature for one of them and a normal S-D compared.

  • Strange, my post from yesterday seems to have Gone. Mike I suggest you fit a VSD, it will be cheaper than a new motor and just think of all the new features, variable speed, emergency stop, bells and whistles! Oh and of course you can throw away all those nasty contactors!

    Regards

    David