I would be grateful if the experts here could tell me what paperwork I should expect having just had a new CU and complete rewire of a house. At the moment I have a certificate from NICEIC but all it states is “Building Regulations Certificate of Completion”, but nothing else. Should I expect more? When I last had this done at a different house I was given a list of works completed with test results, but I do not know what is expected now.
I would suggest that anybody who contracts with an electrician to do any work ensures that the contract (which could be verbal) includes certification.
A prudent householder may wish to verify that an electrician is included in the register of a CPS. A very prudent householder may even wish to see some evidence of identity.
Once that has been done, insisting on a valid signature seems to me to be superfluous.
If there is a dispute about a landlords EICR, it may end up in the First-tier Tribunal. It would be a matter for the Tribunal to decide whether to admit an unsigned certificate (and what weight to give it) i.a.w. Rule 18.(6) of The Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Property Chamber) Rules 2013:
(6) The Tribunal may—
(a) admit evidence whether or not it—
(i) would be admissible in a civil trial in England and Wales; or ...
I see that certain posters do not believe that Certificates (EICR, EIC, MWC) have any necessity to have any verifiability as to the actual person who produced them.
That's not what I have said ... only challenged your assumption that you need some advanced electronic signatures implemented to cover the legal necessity of a person to 'make their mark'?
To be pedantic, the EICR (and requirement for it in Chapter 65 of BS 7671, more to the point) is a report not a certificate.
f there is no Audit trail this is useless. The only trail we have is a signature and other details, yet these may be entirely false on an electronic document unless it has all the necessary features.
Yes, it is hard enough, without trying to invent some new legal requirements that are far and above what is necessary?
Provenance is the basis of our legal system, and is utterly necessary.
Agreed - there's lots on line for those who wish to research the requirements.
I see that certain posters do not believe that Certificates (EICR, EIC, MWC) have any necessity to have any verifiability as to the actual person who produced them. This is crazy! We have a severe problem with certificates already, quality control and responsibility and accuracy. are all very low. We have a requirement in BS7671 that these shall be produced, accurate information given, and they shall be provided to particular persons upon completion. If there is no Audit trail this is useless. The only trail we have is a signature and other details, yet these may be entirely false on an electronic document unless it has all the necessary features. Whilst most people would probably notice if it was signed Joe Bloggs and a false business name and address were written in (I have one or two like this), someone pretending to me is of considerable concern and the only protection I have is a carbon copy on file which can be verified very easily as being identical or not. Electronic certificates are fine with me as long as this same verification can be carried out, with a guarantee of admissibility as evidence. Provenance is the basis of our legal system, and is utterly necessary. In a recent legal case, witnesses for a prosecution claimed various thing about thousands of documents, however when it came down to it only 20 ish pages were accepted, as the rest of the documents were not available or unverifiable.
Some years ago there was a very bright guy locally who was a Social Worker and a City Councillor, he was asked to help a family with a housing application.
He submitted documents on behalf of the family which were later proven to be forgeries, he had taken original documents into a copy and print shop just off the city centre to get them reproduced, the Police were able to identify the shop, the machine, time and date from information embedded into the photocopied documents.
He actually went to prison, lost his job and wrecked his life by pushing things too far trying to help a family in need, because he didn’t realise just how documents can be authenticated.
The electronic copies of documents used for archives are not "just PDFs" Graham, they are not editable and have embedded real electronic signatures and various other pieces of data to prevent alteration.
David, I am aware of the various formats and what they are used for ... I worked in compliance for many years on very very large projects, and this includes document and record management.
For most documents, including 'certificates' of the sort we are talking about, a simple PDF, or a PDF which is a scan of a paper copy, may well be acceptable.
PDF/A provides the most portability and future-proofing in terms of compatibility, which is why it is recommended for archiving purposes (future backwards-compatibility), but can still be edited. It's really no issue to put a password on an editable PDF, where necessary - but the password holder can still change the PDF. The act of transmitting a copy helps, such as a letter etc., the sent and filed copies can be later compared if there is a discrepancy.
The electronic document management platform (even something as simple as SharePoint) are as much a help in this respect as anything else.
I would hope that any electronic certificate software did the entire electronic security properly, so that the signatures could be verified as coming from the right real people,
That's not always necessary for most legal documents (deeds are an exception). https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/e-signatures-england-wales
There are electricians who clearly state in their T&Cs that they will send the certificates when they get paid.
Just because the builder has been paid doesn’t mean the electrician has been paid.
So here I am sitting in a court building and I have spent the morning looking at evidence in the form of scans of various documents which have not been signed, or certified as true copies.
The majority of hospital correspondence has gone out unsigned for many years. The problem with this is that it is also unchecked by the author.
I am not sure what amounts to a "legal document", but deeds and wills have certain requirements to ensure that they are valid.
Otherwise the question is of admissibility. The vast majority of EICs (and EICRs) will go nowhere near a court or tribunal so as a customer, I would be happy to accept one which has not been signed, be that by pen or electronically.
We're about to take you to the IET registration website. Don't worry though, you'll be sent straight back to the community after completing the registration.
Continue to the IET registration site
