Grouping Factor Alternatives

I have a situation in a Theatre environment where the requirement for application of grouping factors has been picked up rather late in the process and the consequent cable size increases (which are significant if the figures from the table in BS7671 are applied) mean the containment is too small and we can't get the cables in the breaker terminals or the connector terminals.

Scenario is a series of panels with 400A supplies, with protective devices of various sizes and a number of outlets ranging from 32A single phase up to 3-phase Powerlock (for 250A supplies).  The original design was that this was all in one panel, so the panel building standards applied, to the internals, rather than BS7671.  Then somebody decided to split the outlets away from the panel by varying distances (from around 2m to 20m) and connect them with trunking.  Now BS7671 needs to be applied to the installation of the link cables. Sadly at the time they just used the internal panel cable sizes to size the containment routes and didn't allow for grouping.  The panels are used for connection of temporary equipment that a touring show or a given production may need, so not very predictable really.

There are typically 6 or 7 circuits running in each trunking link.  They are generally of different ratings/capacities and are overall limited by the 400A supply to the breaker panel.  This does however mean that they could all be loaded to more than 30% (the figure below which they could be ignored for grouping - generally this works out at 50-70% depending on the panel) so without imposing an operational limitation below the panel maximum which the client may not be very happy about, I'm struggling to see a way round using the tabulated grouping factors.  These take the 95mm2 cable for the Powerlocks up to 400mm2 (based on a 70 degree operating temp).  We're generally looking at 2 sizes up from the nominal for most cables with this method.

The grouping factors say they are for identical cables equally loaded.  We have different sized circuits and they may be loaded evenly or unevenly. 

Whilst we can come up with a number of scenarios of circuits loaded at different levels, and it is is unlikely that they would all be used at once and proportionately evenly loaded, it is entirely possible that all circuits from a given panel may be used at once to more than 30% each.  On this basis what options do we have but to use the tabulated grouping factors (which seem to be generally regarded as being pretty conservative)?

There are a lot of practical limitations on site, as were considering options around changing to run some (or all) of the circuits in SWA and keep them spaced apart but we likely can't do this everywhere.

Anyone have any good engineering suggestions for an alternative approach to the grouping factors/cable calculations?  This all starts to get particularly ridiculous where the breaker panel and outlet box are either side of a wall and we may need to put additional termination boxes on both sides so we can upsize about a metre of cable run!

Jason

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  • Jason I think you are thinking this in the wrong way. Why do you want to put high rated circuits in trunking? Your 250A circuit for example would be much better as SWA, fitting 95mm cables in small trunking is not sensible unless it is a straight run. A better design would be to run a 95mm ring main to each panel, and put the CPDs there, and much more convenient operationally, particularly if you want RCD protection of the smaller circuits. I suppose you already have your main panel, but it might well be cheaper and better to forget this and do as I suggest. Obviously a 400mm cable is just plain stupid! Each of the smaller panels could then probably be a standard board with the various socket types around the outside, with breakers and RCDs as required inside. It sounds to me as if someone has tried to make a "pretty" job and this has forgotten that the users don't care, they just want to plug and play! Like this you have no grouping difficulties, the SWA is clipped direct so more than adequately rated, and any changes later (there will be!) are much easier to carry out.

  • Hi David - thanks for that.

    Sadly is it precisely the aesthetic requirements that have got us into this pickle in the first place, and as a new build project the aesthetics are deemed important.

    All the main panels and outlet boxes are made and fixed to the wall.

    We have now in all cases separated the 250A circuits from the trunking with the other circuits in, and these are either running in SWA for some of their length or in a separate trunking which is deemed the best fix due to site conditions.

    This is definitely a case of 'well if you want to get there then I wouldn't start from here'!

    Jason.

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  • Hi David - thanks for that.

    Sadly is it precisely the aesthetic requirements that have got us into this pickle in the first place, and as a new build project the aesthetics are deemed important.

    All the main panels and outlet boxes are made and fixed to the wall.

    We have now in all cases separated the 250A circuits from the trunking with the other circuits in, and these are either running in SWA for some of their length or in a separate trunking which is deemed the best fix due to site conditions.

    This is definitely a case of 'well if you want to get there then I wouldn't start from here'!

    Jason.

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