Grouping Factor Alternatives

I have a situation in a Theatre environment where the requirement for application of grouping factors has been picked up rather late in the process and the consequent cable size increases (which are significant if the figures from the table in BS7671 are applied) mean the containment is too small and we can't get the cables in the breaker terminals or the connector terminals.

Scenario is a series of panels with 400A supplies, with protective devices of various sizes and a number of outlets ranging from 32A single phase up to 3-phase Powerlock (for 250A supplies).  The original design was that this was all in one panel, so the panel building standards applied, to the internals, rather than BS7671.  Then somebody decided to split the outlets away from the panel by varying distances (from around 2m to 20m) and connect them with trunking.  Now BS7671 needs to be applied to the installation of the link cables. Sadly at the time they just used the internal panel cable sizes to size the containment routes and didn't allow for grouping.  The panels are used for connection of temporary equipment that a touring show or a given production may need, so not very predictable really.

There are typically 6 or 7 circuits running in each trunking link.  They are generally of different ratings/capacities and are overall limited by the 400A supply to the breaker panel.  This does however mean that they could all be loaded to more than 30% (the figure below which they could be ignored for grouping - generally this works out at 50-70% depending on the panel) so without imposing an operational limitation below the panel maximum which the client may not be very happy about, I'm struggling to see a way round using the tabulated grouping factors.  These take the 95mm2 cable for the Powerlocks up to 400mm2 (based on a 70 degree operating temp).  We're generally looking at 2 sizes up from the nominal for most cables with this method.

The grouping factors say they are for identical cables equally loaded.  We have different sized circuits and they may be loaded evenly or unevenly. 

Whilst we can come up with a number of scenarios of circuits loaded at different levels, and it is is unlikely that they would all be used at once and proportionately evenly loaded, it is entirely possible that all circuits from a given panel may be used at once to more than 30% each.  On this basis what options do we have but to use the tabulated grouping factors (which seem to be generally regarded as being pretty conservative)?

There are a lot of practical limitations on site, as were considering options around changing to run some (or all) of the circuits in SWA and keep them spaced apart but we likely can't do this everywhere.

Anyone have any good engineering suggestions for an alternative approach to the grouping factors/cable calculations?  This all starts to get particularly ridiculous where the breaker panel and outlet box are either side of a wall and we may need to put additional termination boxes on both sides so we can upsize about a metre of cable run!

Jason

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  • Often overlooked is the fact Annex 4 gives you a choice of 3 methods to calculate grouping. Equations 2, 3 & 4.

    So long as you've not got simultaneous overloads - which you can largely negate except e.g. ringmains - then you can use equations 3 or 4 which use design current.

    Equation 4 is a bit of a headache but considers cases where design current is >30% & <100%.

    When you have got rings then it's a bit more difficult.

  • Thanks Kier.

    I looked at these, and they still require values for Cg - and using the tabulated values isn't really valid as we have multiple circuits of greatly varying sizes, and coming up with the Cg number is the bit that's particularly taxing!

  • For Cg itself is simply a matter of counting and looking at Table 4C1. The problem I imagine you've got is that there’s several circuits so Cg is getting impractically small.

     

    I’ve got a little excel spreadsheet I use that lets me play around. Sometimes for example if a circuit is currently 50% of its grouped rating then increasing the CSA on that circuit to bring it < 30% allows the other circuits to ignore it for the purposes of their own group factor [see note 9 to table 4C1]. This can have a cascade effect because suddenly another circuit that was previously 32% has had its grouping factor changed and is now < 30% so is also ignored.

     

    And it’s perfectly permissible to have an increased cable CSA through an area with different thermal requirements and then revert to a lower CSA once the cables are in a space that the thermal requirements no longer demand that higher CSA. Reg 433.3(i) relieves you from the requirement to put new protection where the CSA is reduced to a level still appropriate for the existing protection, and 523.8 says you should work out the cables based on the heat dissipation requirements on each part of the route.

     

    If I was you I’d be making a spreadsheet and trying to see what I can get away with. I take it you’re also a bit limited on conduit capacity factor and hence can’t go too far on CSAs? Appendix E to the OSG is entirely informational and is there to help design conduit and trunking that is easy to pull cables without damaging them as opposed to meeting any electrical objective – there’s no references from OSG Appendix E to the BS7671 and so long as you’re not putting too much mechanical stress on the cables then would be compliant to slightly exceed these but if you do then make sure the person doing the installation isn’t heavy handed use a cable pulling lubricant. 

  • Thanks Kier.

    I think Table 4C1 is only for groups of uniform cables equally loaded.  Our challenge is that we have 2 lots of cable groups - one with circuits ranging from 16A SP to 63A TP (5 circuits total), and the other from 32A TP to 125A TP (6 circuits total).

    We could possibly use the method in 2.3.3.1 of annex 4 but that gives much worse factors than the the tabulated ones.

    I'm going to take a look at Mikes' suggested method around a temperature calculation based on heat produced and using ambient correction factors and see where that works out.

    We are indeed a bit limited on containment capacity.  We've already found solutions to put separate routes in for the 250A circuits in addition to the above as the grouping factors then were giving some very large cable sizes.

    Simultaneous overload on reflection in a professional event environment I think could be ignored, but for these circuits we have to assume that Ib=In in the absence of knowing what form of mechanical elephants might get plugged in to it!

    Jason.

Reply
  • Thanks Kier.

    I think Table 4C1 is only for groups of uniform cables equally loaded.  Our challenge is that we have 2 lots of cable groups - one with circuits ranging from 16A SP to 63A TP (5 circuits total), and the other from 32A TP to 125A TP (6 circuits total).

    We could possibly use the method in 2.3.3.1 of annex 4 but that gives much worse factors than the the tabulated ones.

    I'm going to take a look at Mikes' suggested method around a temperature calculation based on heat produced and using ambient correction factors and see where that works out.

    We are indeed a bit limited on containment capacity.  We've already found solutions to put separate routes in for the 250A circuits in addition to the above as the grouping factors then were giving some very large cable sizes.

    Simultaneous overload on reflection in a professional event environment I think could be ignored, but for these circuits we have to assume that Ib=In in the absence of knowing what form of mechanical elephants might get plugged in to it!

    Jason.

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