John Peckham said:

It is irrelevant if an installation of a piece of equipment complied at the time, the important issue is does it comply with the current standard.

I disagree with this. Legislation isn't generally "retrospective" and standards are the same. Only a court can decide what precedence is an issue.

I do, however, agree that, for continued service of workplace equipment, the duty-holder may need to make decisions about a product or installation vs current standards (risk assessments have to be reviewed when legislation and standards change).

John Peckham said:

I have to ask why you want copies of withdrawn standards other than for historical interest?

Ongoing (sometimes very long-term) projects, where standards change from the dates for standards and legislation baseline agreed in the contract.

Also experts looking at legal cases which must consider standards in force at the time in question, or changing over time periods in question, in the case.

It is irrelevant if an installation of a piece of equipment complied at the time, the important issue is does it comply with the current standard.

I'm not so sure. Say you were inspecting an old installation that had say BS 3871 MCBs. Do they meet current standards? - almost certainly not, but an EICR is more than that. The real question is are they safe for continued service - e.g. will they meet modern disconnection times in the situation you find? Where better to find that data than from BS 3871 itself? Even though it was withdrawn years ago. (OK, you could refer to some other text that has a copy of the same data, but doesn't that amount to the same thing, in principle).

   - Andy.

Afternoon Andy

For BS 3671 circuits breakers much better to look in the IET On-Site Guide which has a table for BS 3871 max values of Zs without needing to calculate the value from the BS 3871 standard itself.

JP

Can I play devil advocate and say

The Housing (Scotland) Act 2006 changes

A valid EICR does not mean the dwelling is compliant as it may not have an RCD present

Can I play devil advocate

You can, but looking at that very act I have failed to find any reference to an RCD, or indeed any reference to BS7671 or any other British standard either.

Rather the requirements is much more general.

"A house meets the repairing standard if—

(a)the house is wind and water tight and in all other respects reasonably fit for human habitation,

(b)the structure and exterior of the house (including drains, gutters and external pipes) are in a reasonable state of repair and in proper working order,

(c)the installations in the house for the supply of water, gas and electricity and for sanitation, space heating and heating water are in a reasonable state of repair and in proper working order,

(d)any fixtures, fittings and appliances provided by the landlord under the tenancy are in a reasonable state of repair and in proper working order,

(e)any furnishings provided by the landlord under the tenancy are capable of being used safely for the purpose for which they are designed, "

now if an inspection to that standard requires the addition of an RCD where there is not one already is clearly a matter of judgement- and it may well be good practice and normally done, but it is not clear it is legally mandated at all and the law as such says nothing to do with BS7671.

Unless you have a link to more definitive reference of course...

Mike.

gkenyon said:

Also experts looking at legal cases which must consider standards in force at the time in question, or changing over time periods in question, in the case.

Indeed. If somebody suffered harm as the result of a poor installation, it would be judged against the standards of the day in any claim for negligence.

Hi Mike

I think the gist of it is

1st March amendments come in to force

Rented dwelling need 30mA RCD protection if any amendments have been made.  (In affect bringing up to current standard)

Craig from Quinnergy explains it better on YouTube (Changes to The Housing (Scotland) Act 2006 Explained)

about half way through the video.  First half is about lead levels and the need for testing for lead.  URL below

youtu.be/-aJ-XHJjetI

Sergio Fernandez said:

Rented dwelling need 30mA RCD protection if any amendments have been made.  (In affect bringing up to current standard)

It still wouldn't be quite that simple ... it might also depend ion whether the project was already underway (whether or not electrical work has started) - for building control purposes there are dates by which work has deemed to have started.

When construction contracts are involved, things get a whole lot more difficult, because a contractor may not be enabled to make a "change" decision on their own ... the contract variations procedure must be followed.

I can imageine that a lot of Electricians in Scotland are very busy trying to get this done so the properties are compliant with BS7671 and the forthcoming amended Scottish law. 

It does feel similar to when all UK (England) rental dwellings needed a satifactory EICR before they could be rented out with the properties that were already in tenancy agreements had to follow within the year regardless of if a new tenancy started or was continued. 

I think 30mA RCBO (Type A or above) protection is good to have in a dwelling regardless of if rented or not but I think that some installs may fall foul of this meaning a new CU/DB would be needed as 30mA RCBO are not always avaible to retro fit for every brand.  Imagine a Wylex 3036 or similar.  Also worth considering that if RCD protection is to be installed then a type2/3 should also be advocated.

Hi Mike

Did you get a chance to watch the YouTube video?  What were you thoughts?

URL is below

 First half is about lead levels and the need for testing for lead.  2nd half is about the RCD

youtu.be/-aJ-XHJjetI

Hi Mike

Did you get a chance to watch the YouTube video?  What were you thoughts?

URL is below

 First half is about lead levels and the need for testing for lead.  2nd half is about the RCD

youtu.be/-aJ-XHJjetI