Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 12 replies
  • Subscribers 41 subscribers
  • Views 8434 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

Does exposed basic insulation on downlights need to be resolved.

Alan B

On EICR prior to a CU change I found about 12 downlights with basic insulation exposed, some connections in connector strip and some connector strip covered in insulation tape.

Napit code breakers recommends a C2 in this situation. 

 Best practice guide 4 says providing they are not easily accessible or likely to come in to contact with metal work code C3 is recommended.

In my mind best practice guide 4 is probably the more sensible approach. 

Something that I come across regularly

My planned approach going forward with exposed basic insulation will probably be:-

    In enclosed roof/floor space between building floors  C3

    In loft space with easy access C2

Connector strip covered in insulation tape C3

Not sure how I feel about just covering exposed connector strip with tape.

If I have to actually re-make the joints labour costs as much as the lights, so replacing probably makes sense and gives a good result providing hole size doesn't exceed say 85mm.

But if the existing holes exceed 100mm I end up using something like a 135mm concealer ring   which is a great technical solution, but in my opinion doesn't look great.

I think it's a reasonable solution if the customer has no plans to make other changes in the next few years.

My current customers plan to renew their kitching in the next year, I am sure they won't live with a compromise solution for the new kitchen. which means whatever I ask them to pay for replacing the lights or remedial work will effectively  be throw away money.

I am sure if I ask NAPIT support line 3 times I will get 3 different answers, all eventually coming down to the statement, use your engineering judgement. This email is an attempt to get opinions to help form that judgement.

  • 0

    As Andy said some of these single cables are insulated and sheathed. I asked a manufacturer about their cables and told me they were insulated and sheathed so I stripped back one of their cables and it had a sheath of about 0.1mm. Not much of a sheath!

  • 0 in reply to Chris Pearson

    This is made worse by some of the old recessed downlights heat production accelarating the glues demise.

    Personally I think choc blocks should be replaced with an enclosure like at MF WagoBox making sure there is no single insulation exposed and that CPC is sheeved and present then cable tie up the box.  The downlight should be checked to be fire rated and their IP rating.  Ik rating probably does not need to be considered as much as it is in a dwelling kitchen.

    As a side note check if the lamp is LED, if not an advisory note to the customer about changing the lamp for the energy saving.  Lamp cost ofset again the saving of electrcity price per kWh.  New LED light bulb only a few pounds.  The Caveat....Dimmer Switch

    Eg

    12 *60w Vs 12 * 7w LED

  • 0 in reply to Alan B

    oh no I agree it wont, its utter rubbish when heated,  but that is not what BS7671 requires - the cover just has to pass a product standard, and so long as it does that, then it does not have to be fire proof.

    Only enclosures that do not meet a suitable product standard have to be fireproof instead.,

    Mike

  • 0 in reply to Alan B

    I have observed that specific type of box being melted to a 50W GU10 lamp above a down lighter. 

  • 0 in reply to AJJewsbury

    Not sure the enclosure MIke shows above would perform much better than the choc block on it's own.

  • 0 in reply to gkenyon

    The glue on insulating tapes does not last forever.

  • 0

    Some downlighters I've come across have two single core cables to the lamp, but they're actually insulated & sheathed - it's not at all obvious as the wires have a small conductor so even with the sheath they still look the same size as ordinary basic insulation only. So maybe worth a double check on that score.

    +1 for chock blocks needing an proper enclosure (or surrounded by fireproof construction materials) - tape won't stop an overheating joint setting fire to things. I suppose these days of LED downlighters the currents are pretty modest, so it's not quite the risk it used to be, but all the same I wouldn't object to a C2 on that score.

       - Andy.

  • 0 in reply to Northern Spark
    • An equipment enclosure complying with the appropriate product standard
    • An enclosure partially formed by or completed with building material that is non-combustible when tested to BS 476-4: Fire tests on building materials and structures. Non-combustibility test for materials.

    now 476-4 is quite a stiff test - harder actually than the glow wire test that applies to junction boxes,  a sample is placed in a furnace at 760C and examined for flames and out-gassing.  An all- wooden box will fail, but glass fibre insulation, plaster, cement and so forth pass. A choc block sitting on plasterboard is probably right on the limit of OK, as the enclosure is then completed by something incombustible, but it is not ideal

    Mike.

  • 0 in reply to Northern Spark
    Northern Spark said:
    Don't electrical connections need to be in a suitable enclosure?

    Reg 526.5 ...give or take 526.5 (iii).

    The point about insulating tape still standards, whether or not it's in an enclosure.

  • 0

    Don't electrical connections need to be in a suitable enclosure? Wether that's a specific product or part of the building. Is it not about preventing heat/fire/sparks getting out in the event of an overheating/arcing bad connection? Also, even if connections where the cable sheathed is not clamped and are not in an accessible space still at risk of being disturbed by Mr Plumber shoving pipes through etc?

Community Rules & Guidelines