lyledunn said:

The developer could end up with the problem on his plate as the electrical contractor could simply cut his losses.

How might that be?

I have done business with a couple of companies in the past month which have dissolved only to rise from the ashes under a new name. Fortunately for me, their work has been fine, but it does make you wonder.

It is the legal responsibility of the Designer and Installer to make sure all of this complies with BS7671 the developer also has a legal responsibility to make sure it all complies and that building regulations are met.  Who signed off on the initial inspection?  That person and the company they work for need to be forced to go and sit a c&G Initial and Periodic Electrical Inspection and Testing (2391) or equivalent. 

In this case I would say that the cost has to be shared between the 2 (Developer and  Electrical contractor).  If this was on another day I might say issue substantial fines as well to the developer. 

It does bring up a few questions

Building control(what we they doing)

Architect and Electrical design team (what were they doing) has the Electrical Design Team sat the C&G

Design, Erection and Verification (2396)

CPS like Napit/NICEIC (what were they doing)

The above entities should be checking up on a development of this size.

The take away point from all this is people need to be educated or re-educated with regards to electrics.  In a sense consider it CPD for Electricians.  There also needs to be some CPD for the Design Team with regards to Selection and Erection. 

It is the legal responsibility of the Designer and Installer to make sure all of this complies with BS7671

Surely that rather depends on what exactly was contractually agreed ?

I presume not in this case, but there certainly are cases where installations are very deliberately designed not to meet BS 7671, when that is exactly what the customer wants, that is fine. I am however thinking more of industrial and experimental settings, not houses.

Even so certainly I'd be careful of throwing around phrases like 'legal responsibility' unless we are sure that some individual has actually said that they undertake to produce an installation to '7671 and part B (fire) or whatever NI has instead of that, and then failed to do so - which would be breach of contract.

Building regs usually default to 'has a recognized electrician done it?' rather than having the skills to know what they are looking at, at least round here - for anything too complex they have to get some one in from the private sector. They limit their role to being happy with some paper trail to 'prove' the competence of the person doing the work.

There is no part P or anything like it in NI as far as I know,  if there is  it is pretty new, as I used some NI accident stats a few years ago as an example  to illustrate what would change in England if part P were removed. (and concluded not a fat lot actually, apart from slightly cheaper electrical work and a less rich NICIEC more responsive to a lower no of  members )

Mike.

Hi Mike

Lets assume this is for Nothern Ireland.  Would the DSO/DNO agreed that 16mm2 tails almost 15m is OK?  Does BS7671 think it's OK does IET Guidance Note 1: Selection & Erection 9th Edition thinks its OK?

A key point to consider would be the supply rating 30 amp 60amp 90amp

Yes I do believe there is a legal requirement to do the job properly and safely.  Thus in my personal opinion 16mm2 CSA tail 15 meters does not comply.  

I have attached a copy of Northern Ireland Connection Card
Application for connection of an electrical installation

This States amongst other things

18th edition of the Regulations for Electrical Installations BS7671 (the Regulations) where compliance is required

I certify that I am competent to carry out the inspection and testing required

PDF

A friend who works in compliance has also sent me the following.



Yes, in Northern Ireland, it is a legal requirement to issue an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) for a new build dwelling. This requirement is part of the adherence to the building regulations that ensure safety and compliance in electrical installations. The EIC provides a confirmation that the electrical installation has been tested and meets the necessary safety standards. This certification must be issued by a qualified electrician who is competent and registered with an approved body. The process is part of ensuring that all new electrical installations, including those in new build dwellings, are safe, efficient, and compliant with the current regulations and standards.

18th edition of the Regulations for Electrical Installations BS7671 (the Regulations) where compliance is required

Ah, but only "where compliance is required" ... by virtue of the The Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 - which doesn't seem to mention BS 7671 (unlike our ESQCR) - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisi/1992/231/article/32

(by comparison, the ESQCR only seem to require BS 7671 where the consumer's installation includes parallel or switched alternative generation.)

  - Andy.

There is no building regs requirement for anything other than wiring to be safe in NI . That need not necessarily require BS7671.

http://www.buildingcontrol-ni.com//assets/pdf/building-regulations-ni-2012.pdf

The NI building regs.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/nisi/1992/231/contents

The NI equivalent of the ESCQR - which only allows a connection to be refused where it will endanger other users.

Note - I am not saying that meeting BS7671 is a bad idea - it is a perfectly sensible standard to use, and I fully agree with it being called up in the requirements for connection.

As standards you may choose go, it is probably almost the only one you sensibly can refer to if you wish to use twin and earth cables, rings, and square pin sockets as almost no one else but the UK recognizes that approach.

More specifically, a run of any length of 16mm2 PVC insulated and sheathed does not meet BS7671 when covered for overload by a 100A fuse,  but a run of it protected by a smaller fuse, or a run of 25mm2 protected by a 100A fuse suitably routed could be safe.
If the DNO are happy for you to use their fuse for that purpose or not , is entirely a matter for them (and most mainland DNOs say 'not' to limit their liability for things they cannot see).

But that is not because of BS7671, or any other electrical rules based on physics, unless  special DNO fuses somehow know they must only respond to faults in the metering and short tails, and then magically an identical fuse but paid by the house-holder has much longer coverage ;-) 

Note also that in this case it seems that supply connections have already been made, so I assume someone somewhere was happy with a suitable doodle in the right box on the forms. After the power is on, forced disconnection is only possible with proof of danger.

Mike.

 Can you get  a referance to that legislation ? An EIC need not be '7671 - though in the UK it usually would be. However, for example I have used a VDE one for building control purposes in England, though admittedly before Brexit.

Mike.

Sergio Fernandez said:

It is the legal responsibility of the Designer and Installer

When people write such things, my first thought is to ask which statute applies. So which, if any does?

My second thought, as Mike has already mentioned, is that it will be a matter of contract.

If the contract is silent on the applicability of BS 7671, there may be relevant case law. Generally, goods and services should be to a satisfactory standard, and one way of demonstrating that would be compliance with BS 7671.

Sergio Fernandez said:

Yes, in Northern Ireland, it is a legal requirement to issue an Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) for a new build dwelling. This requirement is part of the adherence to the building regulations that ensure safety and compliance in electrical installations. The EIC provides a confirmation that the electrical installation has been tested and meets the necessary safety standards. This certification must be issued by a qualified electrician who is competent and registered with an approved body. The process is part of ensuring that all new electrical installations, including those in new build dwellings, are safe, efficient, and compliant with the current regulations and standards.

Perhaps your friend could identify the relevant legal requirement. However, it is not unusual for LABC to ask for certification of an electrical installation when a full plan application is made for other works, including the erection of a dwelling. Each council area seems to have a different tack which is also evident even within the same BC department. There seems to be utter inconsistency in this regard. Nonetheless, whilst it is not an unreasonable request for the LABC to ask for an EIC, I am not aware of any requirement under the Building Regulations (NI) 2012 that specifically requires such.

From the perspective of acknowledging that the stated purpose of the Building Regulations is primarily to secure the health, safety and convenience of people and for the conservation of fuel and power, it would seem completely reasonable that the certification of an electrical installation should form part of the documentation sought by any right-thinking LABC seeking to tick that global box.