Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Replies 46 replies
  • Subscribers 42 subscribers
  • Views 4966 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in

Multiple AFDD’s tripping.

Stuff

Hi all, I wonder if anyone can shed some light on an arc-fault-finding issue?

Installation details:

Large domestic property with a 42-way DB, a large Loxone (home automation) panel with it’s own 24V battery backup. Uniti Power Usymphony SPY300 provides UPS for two circuits (WI-FI & Medical equipment). Install with no issues since May 2023. A Riello SDH 3000 Sentinel Dual 3000VA is providing UPS to a home lift circuit that was added over a month ago.

Eleven Contactum 32A AFDDs are installed on all socket outlet circuits. RCBO’s on all other circuits

The property is located close to a small/medium-sized retail park.

The Problem:

The homeowner called on Monday this week to say that the kitchen electrics had tripped out. She then followed up with messages to say that the annexe kitchen had tripped, then the loft and then the bedroom sockets. All had tripped when appliances were operated. Sometimes a washing machine, toaster, kettle hover, etc. In all, four AFDD circuits tripping randomly.

Fault finding:

The kitchen AFDD stays up, but when I put on the kettle and the toaster the AFDD trips. If the fridge and toaster are on, the AFDD trips.  With the UPS systems removed, it still happens.

I removed both UPS systems before testing.

I tested the kitchen circuit; it was solid, with no issues. Earth leakage at the incomer was 23.55mA; on the kitchen circuit, it was 3.4mA with appliances on standby. I tested all the kitchen appliances under load, and the total leakage was approximately 3 mA. I ramp-tested the AFDD—23mA. I moved the appliances around the property and could see that they were not the problem. So, it was definitely an arc issue. Also, the LED status indicated an arc trip. Continuity tests confirmed no loose connections.

With all other circuits off. I cannot get the kitchen AFDD to trip.

Cause:

I spoke with Contactum technical, who were really helpful, but we couldn’t determine what was tripping the arc device.  Spoke to the NICEIC – they could not provide any support.

The fact that it has been in place for over a year with no issue, could it be a quality of supply issue from Nathoin Gird? The property has had a number of mini power cuts in the past – hence the UPS going in.

Any suggestions?

 

Thanks in advance. :-)

  • 0

    Just to add, I replaced the kitchen and bedroom AFFDs with RCBOs that I had with me. There has been no tripping since.

  • 0 in reply to Stuff

    Stick with RCBOs only. Replace any existing AFDDs with RCBOs if any faults arise in future. AFDDs are unproven technology and the early adopters are always going to get burnt. Sometimes you have to make a independent engineering judgement rather than blindly following regulations. RCBOs give plenty of protection for new and existing circuits, so nothing negative should arise. AFDD tech is in it's infancy and they are still trying to find out via the guinea pig method as to how far the 'sensitivity slider' should be adjusted in order to function correctly in the real world.

    My guess is that if there is a rush of complaints about  'nuisance tripping, then all they will do is issue a firmware update to 'blind' existing AFDD sensitivity to stop it tripping, thus rendering you  with what will effectively become a RCBO-only in terms of functionality going forward.

  • 0

    Might be worth renting a Chauvin Arnoux PEL (Power Energy Logger) (of brands are available) and see if the issue is caused outside the installation or from within inside.

    Might also be worth watching the YouTube video by David.S at DSES.  URL below

    https://youtu.be/CZtSsFBr4K8?si=03yCL6pSkyWu9EpQ

    Does the CU/DB have a type 2 SPD (Surge Protect Device) present?  If so might be worth looking at the status flags

  • 0

    Hi, I agree on carrying out a Power Quality Analysis. Could the property’s record of intermittent power disruptions, coupled with its vicinity to a retail center, suggests a potential link to the malfunctions in the AFDDs. Furthermore, even though continuity tests have confirmed the connections, is it worth if not already done, performing a detailed inspection, seeking out any indications of thermal damage, corrosion, or other subtle forms of deterioration that might not be apparent during standard continuity tests.

  • 0 in reply to AMK

    Not yet had the opportunity to conduct fault-finding procedures on an AFDD, but I am in the process of installing them in a new HMO. I am looking forward to seeing them in operation! 

  • 0 in reply to whjohnson

    Thanks for the reply. We adapted a house for a chap who became quadriplegic after an accident at work, so I thought it best to provide the safest installation possible. It doesn’t quite fit into the recommendations of 421.1.7, so there is no problem replacing it with RCBOs – which I have done while the existing AFDDs have been sent back for replacement.

    I asked the retailer if they have any problem with AFDDs; they said they wouldn’t know as they’ve only ever sold them to me  Blush

  • 0 in reply to Sergio Fernandez

    Thanks for the reply! Would the DNO do this? I’ve already returned for no charge (probably obiogated under the Consumer Rights Act), so I don’t really want to add more cost to me Blush

    No issue with the surge protection – Checked on the day.

  • 0 in reply to AMK

    Thanks for the replies I’m not a fan of removing everything if there is no need. I tend to find you end up with more issues disturbing what’s there Blush As it’s an issue across multiple circuits, I don’t believe it is a circuit issue.

    That’s the question – How do you fault find an AFDD? You can’t. Even the manufacturer can’t; either it trips at the rated setting, or it doesn’t. Unfortunately, it’s not something we can test at the site.

  • 0 in reply to Stuff
    Stuff said:
    We adapted a house for a chap who became quadriplegic after an accident at work, so I thought it best to provide the safest installation possible. It doesn’t quite fit into the recommendations of 421.1.7, so there is no problem replacing it with RCBOs – which I have done while the existing AFDDs have been sent back for replacement.

    Poor chap!

    Concerning 421.1.7, it sounds a bit like a care home for one, so I agree with the sentiment. However, if the AFDDs are tripping when they should not, it may be argued that they are less safe than RCBOs.

  • 0

    I’m curious about the ‘noise’ on the installation. The AFDD stays up when it’s the only circuit energised. So, is it my installation creating the ‘noise’, or is there ‘noise’ on the incoming supply? Considering the installation has been sound for the past year; I’m leaning towards a supply issue. If it is, then how do I raise this with the DNO? Would they look into it?

Join us to get the best from IET EngX.

Joining EngX lets you personalise your experience so you stay up to date on the topics that interest you, plus you’ll be able to make connections who are looking to collaborate, exchange ideas and more.

Join us Not now

Community Rules & Guidelines