Flex used in fixed wiring

Hi all

I Am currently first fixing a new build property and the heating designer has specified 0.75mm 4 core cable to the room stats. I normally use 1.5 mm 3 core and earth for this but as each room will have its own individual stat, there will be 14 in total, so if I could cut town on space with smaller cables, that would be a bonus. The only 0.75mm cable I can find is flex but I’m reluctant to use so much of it in a fixed wiring situation as I normally use standard t&e type cable. What is everyone’s thoughts on this?

Many thanks Peter

Parents
  • Thanks Alan, interesting ideas. Once set up, It sounds like there would be no user input. Normally on radiators, there is a lockshield valve and a manual valve (or TRV), for users to adjust. If, in this example, a user was able to turn off one or two radiators, this would surely have an effect on the balance of the system, so that possibly the reference room radiator, in the room with the thermostat, would experience a different flow from that which it was commissioned for, and an effect on any temperature difference, between eg bedrooms and lounge, which were designed for.

    The OP, Peter, mentioned manifolds in their second post, so I assume they are wet UFH manifolds, one on each floor. 

    As Andy said Approved Document L book 1 

    "5.20 For heating systems in new dwellings, or when a heat generator such as a boiler is replaced in an existing dwelling, each room should be provided with thermostatic room controls. These should be capable of being used to separately adapt the heating output in each room served by the heating appliance. Where justified in accordance with paragraph 5.21, heating may be controlled for each heating zone rather than individual rooms."

    But that doesn't preclude anyone from designing something different, as long as it is no worse than full compliance.

    Edit; the building regs have hummed and ahhd about TRVs. They were once required, then when Boiler Plus came along they dropped the requirement, then last year they are back in, along with (one of the four) boiler Plus measures. 

    I have UFH in my flat, I tend to leave the  thermostat at room temp all year round, but then I have cats who don't go out much ;)

Reply
  • Thanks Alan, interesting ideas. Once set up, It sounds like there would be no user input. Normally on radiators, there is a lockshield valve and a manual valve (or TRV), for users to adjust. If, in this example, a user was able to turn off one or two radiators, this would surely have an effect on the balance of the system, so that possibly the reference room radiator, in the room with the thermostat, would experience a different flow from that which it was commissioned for, and an effect on any temperature difference, between eg bedrooms and lounge, which were designed for.

    The OP, Peter, mentioned manifolds in their second post, so I assume they are wet UFH manifolds, one on each floor. 

    As Andy said Approved Document L book 1 

    "5.20 For heating systems in new dwellings, or when a heat generator such as a boiler is replaced in an existing dwelling, each room should be provided with thermostatic room controls. These should be capable of being used to separately adapt the heating output in each room served by the heating appliance. Where justified in accordance with paragraph 5.21, heating may be controlled for each heating zone rather than individual rooms."

    But that doesn't preclude anyone from designing something different, as long as it is no worse than full compliance.

    Edit; the building regs have hummed and ahhd about TRVs. They were once required, then when Boiler Plus came along they dropped the requirement, then last year they are back in, along with (one of the four) boiler Plus measures. 

    I have UFH in my flat, I tend to leave the  thermostat at room temp all year round, but then I have cats who don't go out much ;)

Children
  • The OP, Peter, mentioned manifolds in their second post, so I assume they are wet UFH manifolds, one on each floor.

    This is a big house, so possibly >1/floor.

    IIRC, step-daughter's house has 8: 3 on the ground and first floors, and 2 on the top. The house is circa 200 m².

    I can see the point in not heating the guest bedrooms, but if they are going to warm up due to heat below and to the side, the economy may be trivial.

    BTW: IIRC, we used 4 core flex for the stats. (Hubby's choice, not mine.)

  • The Building Regs are not keeping up with research (1), hence they still think zoning is a good thing. Have a look at the video linked below concerning turning off individual rooms, it shows turning off the radiator in one room could actually cost you more, rather than less:

    www.heatgeek.com/.../

    (1) I'm currently in an argument with a Building Inspector from the Council. New build, MVHR system. He says he wants an extractor fan fitted in a walk in wardrobe room (approx 3m x 4m). the MVHR system has been designed for the property, and has got an extract from that room. He still says it needs additional ventilation!

  • www.heatgeek.com/.../

    Not too well explained (for me at least) - "Turning off individual radiators is like applying the breaks. The heat source will have to work hotter to put the required energy into the property!" - but why? I'm guessing that the theory is that with one room cold, the adjacent rooms will have slightly higher heat loss, so their radiators will have to work somewhat harder....?
    I don't entirely see that that directly results in higher flow temperatures though - normally the flow temp is set by a thermostat on the boiler -  it seems plausible that flow temperatures would remain the same but the "on" duration for the adjacent rooms would be a little longer. Some empirical data might have been useful.

       - Andy.

  • He still says it needs additional ventilation!

    point him to the https://www.labc.co.uk/sites/default/files/content/domestic_ventilation_compliance_guide_2010.pdf

       - Andy.

  • My interpretation was that there is a floor to the boiler's output, so if you turn off sufficient radiators, the boiler will start to cycle on and off, which reduces its efficiency.

    BTW, we all know that they are convectors rather than radiators. Slight smile

  • we all know that they are convectors rather than radiators.

    Indeed - heating/plumbing system components are some of the best mis-named .... boilers don't (otherwise they'd explode), radiators are mostly convectors, as you correctly say, header tanks are really cisterns not tanks (by definitions tanks are closed not open - so the hot water cylinder is a tank (but they usually call it a cylinder instead), but the header tank isn't) and modern pipework consists of tube, not pipe (a pipe has a socket at one end and a spigot at the other).

       - Andy.

  • The building regulation F1 (1) says:

    " F1. (1) There shall be adequate means of ventilation provided for people in the building.

    Requirement F1 does not apply to a building or space within a building:

    a. into which people do not normally go;

    b. which is used solely for storage; or

    c. which is a garage used solely in connection with a single dwelling."

    A walk in wardrobe might be deemed to be a space used solely for storage. There might be some actual dressing going on in there, but the same could happen in the garage, thinking dungarees Slight smile

    Also ADF1 says;

    "Extract ventilation

    1.17 Extract ventilation to the outside should be provided in all of the following spaces.

    a. Kitchens.

    b. Utility rooms. 

    c. Bathrooms.

    d. Sanitary accommodation."

    WIWs don't fit in those categories.

    Edit; seem to have replied to the wrong post, meant to reply to the ventilation post by Andy.

  • The building regulation F1 (1) says:

    I'm not disagreeing (although I can see a point of view that people would be expected to enter a walk-in wardrobe (given the walk-in bit), and unlike a garage (which typically has a large door direct to the outside) wouldn't be expected to have incidental ventilation. My point was that even if ventilation was considered necessary, then the existing whole-house system should do the job perfectly well (as the compliance guide says) - indeed sticking a simple extract fan into a home that's presumably designed to be reasonably air-tight, and when it's running reducing the pressure in that room, will likely undermine the whole-house something rotten.

       - Andy. 

  • Yes it’s a two storey 3000 sq ft house. I believe as others have said that it is a building control decision to have each room zoned which does make a lot more work for us. The design was done by a reputable heating company so have no problems with it, they are designing around what building control demand. As regards the original question of using flex to the stats, I think I will go with the flex to cut down on space aswell as this is what the design specifies!

  • Comfortable, but not huge!

    14 stats still seems over the top, but I understand the reason why. The S-plan box must be a bit full!

    I still have no problem with the flex - it seems an obvious solution.