RCD types, an informed source of information?

RCD types. I'm getting more confused the more I read into it.

Ok, so we changed from Type AC to Type A, as backfed DC current from appliances could saturate the RCD coil, and stop it operating in fault conditions. Right, I can see that.

It's now been brought to our attention that some RCDs are not bi-directional, so need to be changed to bi-directional if current is likely to flow back through the RCD. Ok I can understand that more than the Type A vs AC.

Now, I'm going to fit a Heat Pump. Until recently, these were fitted on Type A RCDs, and still are by the bulk of Installers. (Manufacturers instructions are useless, one I have here in front of me says nothing about overcurrent protection, it just says a public supply of >16 and <75 amps).

Reading the Hager definitions,(linked below) it appears I need a Type A, or B, or possibly a Type F, as most HPs now use variable speed inverters. So how do I narrow it down as to what I require?

Do I go for the Type A, which Hager have listed as for  "Single phase in­vert­ers,"

The Type B, which says "In­vert­ers for speed con­trol, ups, EV char­ging where DC fault cur­rent is >6mA, PV "

Now note, they recommend the Type B for PV, so that is another I will have to change.

Or, do I go for the Type F, which says " some air con­di­tion­ing con­trol­lers us­ing vari­able fre­quency speed drives "

Clearly, there is a dilemma here. Without Manufacturers direction, I need to ensure compliance with this Countrys requirements - 7671 et al.  So the Type A could be fine, the Type B, probably, but I may need the Type F.

And, after reading the Hager explanation, I now also need a Type B bi-directional for any PV supplies.

So, how do we choose what to go for?  And If I go for a 'B', what does the Type F do differently?

And, on a similar subject, if the backfed DC current can affect the RCD on that circuit, can it also affect the other RCDs in the DB? They are all connected to a common neutral and earth, so could the backfed DC make its way through the neutral/earth to stop adjacent RCDs tripping under fault conditions if they are Type AC, or another type that can be affected in another way, say a F and A?

And, one I hinted at a few weeks ago, what happens when you fit a new DB, and find out one of the largest DB suppliers does not do a Type B or F?

Personally, I think this is getting to be a real mess, that's why people are still putting in Type A's, when, if reading into it, a B or F is required, but, actually finding out what is required is so difficult.

Hager link: hager.com/.../selection-of-rcd-types

Parents
  • A neat bit of surface wiring would set aside the regulatory imperative arising from flush mounting cables. 

    Or use BS 8436 (nail shield) cables ... much easier to work with than SWA and can then flushed without needing 30mA RCDs (just make sure the MCB is properly co-ordinated).

      - Andy.

  • That may be a solution for omitting 30 mA RCD protection for control wiring concealed in walls, but not concealing the supply circuit in a wall as it’s only made up to 4.0 mm which is rated at 30 amps Method B.

    www.elandcables.com/.../downloadpdf.ashx

  • but not concealing the supply circuit in a wall as it’s only made up to 4.0 mm which is rated at 30 amps Method B.

    It is made in larger sizes - but for some reason BS 8436 only recognises up to 4mm² - the Irish equivalent (IS 273?) seems to think 6mm² is fine too - so it is available if you know where to look. I doubt if Irish physics are any different.

    Also I reckon 4mm² can be safely pushed to 32A method B (at least for the XPLE insulated versions, which all I've seen so far have been) - as the cable itself is good for 90 degrees rather than the usual 70. So one option could be to use the 90 degree tables for the concealed part, and allow a distance in better conditions before termination. Or perhaps better still, take the 90 degree rating and de-rate for 70-degree usage (I did find a formula for that once), which actually yields 32A rather than 30A (presumably because XPLE is better thermal conductor than PVC). Which did turn out to be quite helpful when I wanted to show that 4mm² was actually OK on a 32A radial socket circuit...

    Or of course if it's a nice solid wall and the cable can be embedded in plaster, it's only method C and you've got 36A even from the 70 degree tables.

    Hopefully most domestic heat pumps won't draw more than 32A for any significant length of time, otherwise the bills would be horrendous.

       - Andy.

  • The larger sizes run into a potential problem with the foil thickness and burn back while tripping  the MCB sizes that correspond to the cable rating. - if the foil is made a lot thicker then you re-invent something more like pyro in terms of flexibility.. 

    I suspect that that like the concerns over 1mm2 CPC in twin and earth on 32A, the risk is overplayed, and the cables are still far safer than having no earthed foil.  In reality most normal  MCBs are a lot faster than the limit permitted by the standards and ADS operates just fine, but it is hard to prove it always will. (Much like SY cables, where the current is limited by the steel wires, and it is not recommended,but works just fine in reality, despite not having met the standard.)

    the freedom to exercise some professional judgement is needed.

    Mike

Reply
  • The larger sizes run into a potential problem with the foil thickness and burn back while tripping  the MCB sizes that correspond to the cable rating. - if the foil is made a lot thicker then you re-invent something more like pyro in terms of flexibility.. 

    I suspect that that like the concerns over 1mm2 CPC in twin and earth on 32A, the risk is overplayed, and the cables are still far safer than having no earthed foil.  In reality most normal  MCBs are a lot faster than the limit permitted by the standards and ADS operates just fine, but it is hard to prove it always will. (Much like SY cables, where the current is limited by the steel wires, and it is not recommended,but works just fine in reality, despite not having met the standard.)

    the freedom to exercise some professional judgement is needed.

    Mike

Children
  • the freedom to exercise some professional judgement is needed

    Perhaps, but if the judgement turns out to be in error, you have a real problem.

    I suggest that British Standards (not just 7671) deliberately allow a margin for safety. Some even state it explicitly.