Upstream protection for short circuit current

We are providing some lighting dimmer panels (they also provide hard power and switched power - configurable on a per-channel basis) for a theatre installation.  All the dimmer outputs are 10A single phase circuits and the dimmer has a 3-phase supply.

The electrical consultant has stated that the worst case PFC for a fault at the dimmer outputs is approx 9kA - presumably this is on a bolted phase-phase short..  The dimmers are provided with 6kA breaking capacity Type C 10A MCBs (to EN 60898) with neutral disconnect for their output circuits. The consultant is saying that these must be replaced with 10kA devices.  This of course is not a simple matter as the product is CE/UKCA marked and such a modification would likely require a re-certification by the manufacturer with significant cost and time impacts.  Clearly we can't simply swap the devices over ourselves and the manufacturers are not keen to do it either.

The upstream protective device is a 80A Type D MCB to EN60947-2 (fixed - non adjustable), and has a breaking capacity of 10kA. Looking at the trip time curve for that device once you get to around 800A you hit the 'instantaneous' region.  Likewise for the dimmer MCB once you hit 100A you are in the 'instantaneous' region.

My argument is that if there If there is a fault current of 1kA-6kA, you're likely to be in to a race between the 80A and 10A breakers where you can't predict the winner anyway, and in the worst case of a fault current >6kA and the 10A MCB welds shut the 80A MCB will open within it's fastest possible operation anyway (sub 0.1s).

Also, on a 4mm2 CSA output cable by my calculations once you get to about 8m of cable the worst case fault current is dropped to 6kA anyway.

434.5.1 provides for a higher breaking capacity device upstream to provide protection for a downstream device, although energy let-through needs to be considered.

Is my logic correct or flawed, and is there anything else we would need to do to determine if the configuration decsribed above is compliant?  We know the very high fault current would be an edge-case in terms of likelihood but the electrical consultant is very particular on this project.

NB - We have looked at alternative manufacturers of similar products (there aren't many) and they all use 6kA MCBs.  There is a 'bigger brother' product with higher breaking capacity which won't fit physically and would have a significant cost uplift that I expect will not be feasible.

Thanks in advance.

Jason.

Parents
  • within it's fastest possible operation anyway (sub 0.1s)

    0.1s is actually quite a long time for breaking fault currents. If a breaker really took that long 9kA would give you an energy let-through something in the region is (9k)² * 0.1 or 8,100,000 A²s = for typical 70 degree PVC cable (k=115) you'd be looking needing nearly 25mm² to have suitable withstand (k²S²).- so in practice "instantaneous" is usually quite a bit quicker (and there are a few mitigating factors - once a arc starts to form the current can be restricted etc.). To a degree MCBs should get a bit faster with higher currents (there's more oomph from the magnetic parts) but still they're often a lot slower than fuses for large currents (fuses having the advantage of not needing to get moving parts into motion).

       - Andy.

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  • within it's fastest possible operation anyway (sub 0.1s)

    0.1s is actually quite a long time for breaking fault currents. If a breaker really took that long 9kA would give you an energy let-through something in the region is (9k)² * 0.1 or 8,100,000 A²s = for typical 70 degree PVC cable (k=115) you'd be looking needing nearly 25mm² to have suitable withstand (k²S²).- so in practice "instantaneous" is usually quite a bit quicker (and there are a few mitigating factors - once a arc starts to form the current can be restricted etc.). To a degree MCBs should get a bit faster with higher currents (there's more oomph from the magnetic parts) but still they're often a lot slower than fuses for large currents (fuses having the advantage of not needing to get moving parts into motion).

       - Andy.

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  • That makes sense.  The 80A device is a Schneider Acti9 C120H 80 Type D.  You can't really read an actual disconnect time from the curves they provide at that fault current as the graph doesn't seem to flatten off at the limit of the mechanics: