Requirements for an electrical design & the EIC

I think the nature of the way the certificates are designed may pose problems. For a EIC for example, you cannot say you are the designer exclusively for the part of the installation you either worked on via some kind of repairs or circuit reroutes/removals, or you simply added say, a new ring final.

The Design box if signed, infers that you have designed the whole installation rather than just the one part which you have carried out work upon. Yes there is a 'Limitations' box, but how many actually bother to enter anything into it other than for a Inspection report? Maybe there should be a clause added such as 'this certificate exclusively applies only to the works described and not the complete installation unless stated otherwise'.

Heera said:

Now a new subcontractor comes a long a installs a new circuit on that DB, in which another as fitted design has to be done.

If you're following the accepted rules of thumb per Appendix 6, this new circuit is not part of the original design, that's a new EIC for the new circuit, limited to that circuit.

There should be a previous EIC for the original installation ...

The MEIWC can only be provided for a new circuit:

Or ... is someone trying to play "all ends to the middle", by suggesting circuits that are already planned into the original design are "new circuits" just because a contract says another company is installing the wiring from the distribution board, and perhaps some bonding and containment too?

Whichever, in general these are all contractual issues, rather than something that needs to be addressed by BS 7671 itself.

I'm also providing this commentary, from the perspective of working on very large infrastructure programmes, that involve a Principal Contractor, and number of other contractors, with varying scopes. including the situation you describe.

, I would be struggling to accept any project where the electrical deisgner hasnt given written assurance

Quite so - now at the shallow end the  "design" may be as simple as looking up a cable size in the OSG and looking at voltage drop over length - and that may be done by the same person who also acts as the installer and inspector,  but it is a "design decision" none the less - and selecting the wrong cable, but installing it perfectly, would be a design fault, rather than an installation one...

Mike.

Well, if several folk have jointly and severally generated the design over an extended period, then ideally all of them need to be recorded, as well as who is responsible for what aspects - if not on that form then somewhere else, unless another party is happy to adopt the responsibility for  design work that is not their own on  behalf  of others - such as a director on behalf of his company.

The whole point is that there is someone, or at least a legal entity, that is responsible if something is later found to be defective in the design, and the form is one place to record that. Who is responsible for a design weakness, much like an installation error, could become really important, if for example the building burns down.

Mike

Been reading this thread with intrest and how things have been looked at with regards signatures and in particular that of the "designer".

Of course over the many years I have worked in the industry and particularly using NICEIC (There are other industry schemes and providers of BS7671 model Certificates and reports!) that sometimes just takes a wee bit of organisation to get the Designers signature, ofetn I have driven round to their office to get a signature, or when we could trust the postal service send it with a self return envelope and get the EIC back for going to the client.

Now, I was told long time ago, an electrician that adds in a new circuit for say a simple lighting circuit or power radial, that job will never go to a "Designer" the electrician knows the cable size and type of cable installed, their choice of cable route, containment and protective device so they are the "Designer" and that made sense to me.

Also an company or individual that just does or says they are only the installer or indeed only the verifier, how can they carry out those tasks without "Somebody" doing the design first?? The installer must have bene given drawings, schedules of cable routes and cable types/sizes so any deviation from that then the installer is seeking advice from that designer to change or they are now an additional designer.

Im really struggling a bit here to understand why a EIC cant get signed by the designer or indeed designers as we have now on numerous jobs.

If I was the end client or their representitive, I would be struggling to accept any project where the electrical deisgner hasnt given written assurance on their contribution to the electrical installation.

Cheers GTB  

Heera said:

Is there any mandatory requirement (by the IET) for this section to be signed?

The IET don't have any mandatory requirements for this. BS 7671 may be mandated by contract, and/or by ESQCR.

The normative requirement in BS 7671 is Regulation 644.4 (Regulation 134.2.1 refers to Chapter 64 for certification required to be issued).

gkenyon said:

644.4 The person or persons responsible for the design, construction and verification of the installation shall issue the Certificate, which takes account of their respective responsibilities, to the person ordering the work, together with the records mentioned in Regulation 644.3.

The recommendation for the interval between initial verification and the first periodic inspection shall be recorded on the Certificate.

An interesting aspect is that there is another normative requirement, Regulation 134.2.2 of BS 7671, which requires the designer to make a recommendation for the interval to the first periodic inspection and test.

So, if the designer has not signed the certificate, even if it has the information (the interval) for Regulation 134.2.2, it could be questioned whether the designer has specified that information agrees with it.

Chris Pearson said:

If you are (or work for) the principal/main contractor, you have a problem, but it is a legal one and not technical.

And yes, this is really where it is ... it's an issue for determining "completion" of the works, or a stage of works, and something for a QS or contracts lawyer to help sort out.

Heera said:

A legal problem if it is not signed?

Depending on the contract, the Client could claim the work is not complete? Perhaps this is really a question for a QS or contracts lawyer?

If a design has been submitted by somebody else would that not be signed when it was received by the contractor. I don't see why it needs to be signed on the certificate as well so long as the signed design drawings are attached to the certificate.

Gary

A legal problem if it is not signed?

Yes apologies an EIC.