Requirements for an electrical design & the EIC

No, but the principal contractor, who has appointed sub consultants to do the installation, in which we provided as fitted designs.

Heera said:

No, but the principal designer who has appointed sub consultants to do the installation,

Apologies, but I'm now a little confused. In CDM, there is a Principal Designer, and there are Designers. I would not always expect a Principal Designer to carry out an electrical installation design (unless of course the only works being considered is electrical) and if the Principal Designer did not do the electrical design that person would not be signing as the Designer on a BS 7671 certificate ... but someone should?

Heera said:

n which we provided as fitted designs.

Do the as-fitted designs align with the original design, or did someone do more "design" ? Is it the person making design changes who ought to now provide a conformity statement for design according to BS 7671?

On some of our sites electrical work has been carried out by our sub-contractors.

When complete, they have employed another contractor (sub-sub-contractor) to test the installation and provide a EIC certificate.

The work was usually a new MCB fitted in an existing DB with a new cable to a new security equipment enclosure.

In a few cases a larger DB (more ways) replaced an existing DB.

Our sub-contractor submitted a full design including cable calcs, general layout drawings and Single Line Diagrams.

The client's security consultants xxxxx have commented that the "Designer" section of the EIC has not been signed.

They are rejecting our documentation because there is no signature against the design.

To go with this certificate, we have submitted to xxxx and xxxxx the design drawings and documents (each design includes cable calcs, general layout drawings and Single Line Diagrams), as required by the client standards.

From this submitted design they can verify that the design has been carried out to any relevant standards (including BS7671).

Is there any mandatory requirement for this section to be signed?

Getting these existing certificates signed by the relevant engineer(s) could be difficult to achieve.

The applicable client specification (F15) states:

5.3 Detailed Design

Notwithstanding the dimensions given within the Particular Specification the Contractor shall confirm by measurement on site the requirements for all cabling and plant provided within the Contract. Cabling and plant shall be provided compatible with site measurements.

The detailed design shall include, but not be limited to:

• Cable sizing calculations to ensure correct sizing, type, length and method of installation in the light of the plant and installation provided.
• Cable installation design calculations shall take into account ambient temperature in compliance with BS7671 (see Guidance Note).
• Finalising all cable routes including sizing of cable containment (ducts, tray, trunking, conduits, etc) including mounting arrangements.
• All cable sizing calculations and test sheets shall be produced using the Amtech Pro Design software. Final test results shall be recorded on the Fast Test Plus format. Electronic copies of the design and test results shall be handed over to the Project Manager on completion.
• The Contractor shall submit calculations to the Project Manager showing that the installation complies with the IEE wiring regulations. On completion of the installation the Contractor shall provide Completion and Inspection Certificates in the form prescribed in the IEE Wiring Regulations
• The Contractor shall submit Loop diagrams to the Project Manager detailing all terminations and interconnecting cables.
• Circuit design information detailed in the cable sizing calculations shall include all of the optional information as detailed in xxxx 3.02, Clause 4.2.3."

As you can see above, the client requirement is for "Completion and Inspection Certificates".

No-where does it include a requirement for certification of the Design.

Heera said:

They are rejecting our documentation because there is no signature against the design.

If the contract requires a completed EIC, the customer if fully entitled to be supplied with one.

Heera said:

NICEIC certificate

I assume that you mean an EIC.

If you are (or work for) the principal/main contractor, you have a problem, but it is a legal one and not technical.

Yes apologies an EIC. 

A legal problem if it is not signed?

If a design has been submitted by somebody else would that not be signed when it was received by the contractor. I don't see why it needs to be signed on the certificate as well so long as the signed design drawings are attached to the certificate.

Gary

Heera said:

A legal problem if it is not signed?

Depending on the contract, the Client could claim the work is not complete? Perhaps this is really a question for a QS or contracts lawyer?

Heera said:

Is there any mandatory requirement (by the IET) for this section to be signed?

The IET don't have any mandatory requirements for this. BS 7671 may be mandated by contract, and/or by ESQCR.

The normative requirement in BS 7671 is Regulation 644.4 (Regulation 134.2.1 refers to Chapter 64 for certification required to be issued).

gkenyon said:

644.4 The person or persons responsible for the design, construction and verification of the installation shall issue the Certificate, which takes account of their respective responsibilities, to the person ordering the work, together with the records mentioned in Regulation 644.3.

The recommendation for the interval between initial verification and the first periodic inspection shall be recorded on the Certificate.

An interesting aspect is that there is another normative requirement, Regulation 134.2.2 of BS 7671, which requires the designer to make a recommendation for the interval to the first periodic inspection and test.

So, if the designer has not signed the certificate, even if it has the information (the interval) for Regulation 134.2.2, it could be questioned whether the designer has specified that information agrees with it.

Chris Pearson said:

If you are (or work for) the principal/main contractor, you have a problem, but it is a legal one and not technical.

And yes, this is really where it is ... it's an issue for determining "completion" of the works, or a stage of works, and something for a QS or contracts lawyer to help sort out.

Been reading this thread with intrest and how things have been looked at with regards signatures and in particular that of the "designer".

Of course over the many years I have worked in the industry and particularly using NICEIC (There are other industry schemes and providers of BS7671 model Certificates and reports!) that sometimes just takes a wee bit of organisation to get the Designers signature, ofetn I have driven round to their office to get a signature, or when we could trust the postal service send it with a self return envelope and get the EIC back for going to the client.

Now, I was told long time ago, an electrician that adds in a new circuit for say a simple lighting circuit or power radial, that job will never go to a "Designer" the electrician knows the cable size and type of cable installed, their choice of cable route, containment and protective device so they are the "Designer" and that made sense to me.

Also an company or individual that just does or says they are only the installer or indeed only the verifier, how can they carry out those tasks without "Somebody" doing the design first?? The installer must have bene given drawings, schedules of cable routes and cable types/sizes so any deviation from that then the installer is seeking advice from that designer to change or they are now an additional designer.

Im really struggling a bit here to understand why a EIC cant get signed by the designer or indeed designers as we have now on numerous jobs.

If I was the end client or their representitive, I would be struggling to accept any project where the electrical deisgner hasnt given written assurance on their contribution to the electrical installation.

Cheers GTB