Do CPS schemes like NICEIC and NAPIT have a duty of care to get their members over the line?

Totally agree.  They should provide training which would equate to CPD for the price of the membership,  Certainly for smaller firms

It is an interesting question Sergio, but one I feel there is no definitive answer to, in fact the "Correct" answer could be at either end of the spectrum.

My own thought is when I read all the comments for electricians and indeed technicians about cost and time to attend numerous and regular training courses or indeed become a member of one of these schemes and its a money making scheme etc etc and lots of people out there getting work without any of those certs or quals or memberships.

Im afraid its all about the "Money".

My main thought is every individual no matter where you are in the electrical industry is it is your "Career" therefore your choice to do these things or not, just like we all have a choice to take out holiday, home or any other insurance, yes you save money while everything is ok, have an accident on holiday and in hospital with no insurance cover then...........................!

If I wish to make money in my career surely you must make some "Investment" that allows you to do that? after all it is your career nobody elses.

We all I hope know what Reg 16 EAWR says plus many other statute regulation says similar about being competent, DSEAR 2002 says similar about engaging "Suitably trained and competent person", so how would we prove that?

I seved a four year craft SJIB apprenticeship, gained my indentured papers and in 1981 first day at college we were first intake trained on the 15th Edition. Are some people saying thats all I needed to do? I served my trade apprenticeship, passed my C&G 236 Pts 1 &2 and therfore competent when I got my time out in 1985. NO AMT or FICA etc back then.

If I just kept getting work and doing it well in 2025 would I be competent? without any training courses or certificates since 1984?

Its my career, its my trade, its how I make money for myself and my family, and if that means I need to constantly go on training courses etc then so be it, costs are then part of my overhead and ultimately my customers pay for that. 

But what does the client want? infact what does the client according to regulation and also perhaps their insurances say they need "Employ Competent persons". A race to the bottom, the lowest cost etc we have all seen that, somebody can do the job for far less, and yes not a level playing field. ECA, SELECT, NICEIC, NAPIT etc etc all cost money to join, all ask for certain things and everyone has a choice, join or dont. If you do join, availibility of technical helplines, webinars, sharing of info, and sometimes, inhouse/reduced training costs. But again its a choice.

Clients can of course help, and they did in the past with nearly all local authority and Gov departments insisting on NICEIC member forms must do the work and certificates and reports must be from a NICEIC firm, again if you want to play  the game you need to buy the ticket.

Issue of course is, its not a level playing field when tendering work, those that are scheme members, undertake training, overheads will be more than those that are not members and dont do training, then again whats the quality and compliance of the work?

For me needs to be driven far better by the clients, also some liability insurers are demanding proof of scheme membership and certs afterall they pay out should something go wrong. An incident where "Competency" is questioned and you are in a criminal court would my old 236Pt1 &2 and apprentice indentures from 1985 cut the mustard?

Clients have a choice who they employ to do the work, electrical contracting fiorms have a choice who they employ as electricians, designers and verifiers and if they wish to join a scheme or not. Sole traders and the self employed again they have a choice do training courses and join schemes or not, indeed by insurance or not. Its a choice.

I have done numerous courses over the years, in fact my original 2391 when it first came out before they watered it down because so many people failed, for me was the best electrical course and exam/test I ever attended and passed. Also repeated lots of courses as they were upgraded, but that was my own choice, and I would like to think financially I gained more than I spent.

Cheers GTB

GTB said:

every individual no matter where you are in the electrical industry is it is your "Career" therefore your choice to do these things or not, just like we all have a choice to take out holiday, home or any other insurance, yes you save money while everything is ok,

Doesn't this conflate "career" [aspirational] with "job" [functional] in terms of where folks are on that trope of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Career is at the top, while job is much lower down in terms of having met basic needs? 

Here we are finding that "career" IS being defined by others in terms of hoops to jump through, which we need to acknowledge needs a 'negotiation' between all parties as to direction of travel and steering our way through the fog of confusions.

We are now in a neoliberal, devil take the hind most, austerity for the many, style economy that wasn't present when I was at university back in 73-79, and have benefitted greatly from. 

Not sure if we are agreeing or not. Wicked problems, and no easy solutions!

Some good points there, GTB. I think that the key words are, "choice" and, "money".

I suspect that it is similar throughout the world of work.

Take medicine, for example. At one time you went off to medical school (it helped if your father was a doctor), passed your exams, did a year of house jobs (if you wanted good ones, it helped if your father was a doctor) and then you were free to put up your plate (or join the family practice, if your father was a doctor). You never needed to study again.

You did not need to know much about drugs because there weren't many, you never looked at a CT (let alone MRI) scan because there were none, etc.

Does this seem familiar?

So the driver for continuing professional development is advances in technology and to some extent, it really is up to the worker to decide where they want to sit amongst their peers.

If it reaches a point whereby an insurance company is compelling you to continuously retake your exams before they will grant you a policy then the job won't be worth a light, and the already shrinking numbers of those skilled persons we are already short of will jack it in altogther. Be careful what you wish for.

Note that there are many chapters in the regulations which you will never have to have a knowledge of or apply unless you work in those particular areas. Medical facilities for one - For example, I have never worked in a hospital or a vets or anything like it. Nor have I ever been involved in the process of designing and installing swimming pool heaters. It is highly unlikely that I shall ever do so in future, so I can safely ignore those chapters.

Similarly, there are already exclusions in most insurance policies, such as the carrying of explosives, working in mines or docks or aboard ships for example, unless extra cover is paid out for.

I think it would be commercial suicide for insurance companies requiring some kind of ACOP for every electrical task you under take.

How many would you like? "One for working oin Ring Finals? That's a 1 day course and £500 please".

"Fitting downlights in a kitchen or bathroom? You'll need to do a 1 day course on each area in order to get your ACOP, and that'll be £500 a punt".

If things ever reach the ridiculous heights of the gas safe world we may as well go home and stay there. I recently learned that you have to do a ACOP to change a rubber seal on an oven door for God's sake. Madness! Absolute madness.

It's about time we began to think more about getting the job done, rather than having to continuously look over our shoulder in order to ensure that we have complied with the box-ticking clipboard warrior's rules all of the time. Ask yourself this - What is the endgame for these people? Why are they there and what do they actually do that contributes positively to the industry? Life simply isn't long enough! And nor in many instances, are the customer's patience!

I am trying to understand where you are coming from, but as my earlier reply indicated the sole trader, electrician, approved electrician, a Ltd company, contractor etc all have a choice! they can undertake training or not, they can go to whatever training provider they choose, and decide depending on course of online, in person, part time or longer courses.

Technology changes, I know some of the handskills and electrical installation skills I learnt 40+ years ago havent changed, but there are items that didnt exist when I started. But my choice if I wish to go on a course or join a scheme or not. Lets not forget that if the electrician either installer or person verifying doesnt do their job correctly, then fatalities, serious injuries, and fires may be the result. So surely it is in the interest of not only those people and those that employ them to make sure that people indeed are doing what they should be and have the appropriate knowledge and can apply that for the task/work being carried out.

Those that are welders and time served welders, depending on the metals they are welding do also need to go on update and refresh courses to ensure that basic knowledge and practical skillset are still being practised.

Cheers GTB

whjohnson said:

If things ever reach the ridiculous heights of the gas safe world we may as well go home and stay there. I recently learned that you have to do a ACOP to change a rubber seal on an oven door for God's sake. Madness! Absolute madness.

Well now, as it happens, I need a new seal (not rubber, but a woven metal braid) for my oven door. No tinkering with gas pipes is involved, so I think that I am allowed to do it.

Yes, the "gas safe" world - Screwfix/Electricfix will not sell me thermocouples (for the gas boiler).

So, perhaps distribution boards should be available only to members of an electrical CPS? After all, if you cannot sign them off, are you competent to fit them?

Indeed it is the case that one is free to complete whichever courses one likes, but there seems to be an endless pressure being applied to compel people to do courses they don't actually need. Many years ago when I was despatched from the loading bay of the 1970s Apprentice Factory at the ripe old age of 21, whenever we bought new kit from a manufacturer, we went on a manufacturer provided product course as a part of the purchase price of the kit, so no need to back to college. Many of these were very useful, others a complete waste of time, but the facility was there. Indeed, as a part of their mktg strategy, many manufacturers made the offer of a 'free 1 or 2 day course' for the maintenance people and the operator. The intoduction of CNC machine tools was one I recall, where we were given an introduction to the mitsubishi FANUC control logic etc. Another was for a piece of high frequency induction heating kit.

You could choose to opt in or opt out and there was no compulsion to actually do the course. You would still end up working on the kit regardless. Contrast this with the requirements these days to fit a EV charger or a solar panel - you have to get govt registered and fill in reams of paperwork before you can run a single cable. Surely this is the wrong way round. It isn't just our industry, it is across all fields.

What happens to all of these peices of paper? What for example, does the local council do with all those building notifications? They sure make boring reading so what is the point other than to serve that evil US import known as litigation.

I often wonder how stuff actually gets done these days, or rather it doesn't, not without at least 10 years worth of jobsworth 'impact assessments and the like.

If you elect to specialize in a certain area then yes, the responsible thing is to educate yourself about it,

It is the requiremnt  (As in, "yoiu have to join and register with a govt scheme") rather than indvidual voluntary choice bit that I have a problem with.

As for the danger of undertaking works? The official stats will give you the answer to that, and it is nowhere as bad as the likes of the Electrical ASafety council would have you believe.

Hi John 


I am sure that you are more than capable of teaching these courses, to be honest you could probably write or help write the book to accompany the course as well.  I was merely highlighting the fact that in the same way some electricians find will themselves in the position to no longer meet the requirement to call themselves an electrician after being in the industry for several decades, so will some of the instructors/lecturers in learning establishments.

The discussion is to get the industry thinking and also make sure that we don't lose people from the industry due to box ticking/meeting requirements.  While I do understand we need something in the industry to make sure the people are trained/competent/experienced.  My concern is that we will lose people from the industry through accelerated attrition if we don't put safety nets in place to help retain the engineer/electrician/tutor that we have in the UK if they no longer meet the new and ever evolving requirements.

What we actually need is some stability to regain ground lost due to over-regulation and too many updates. The whole thing needs to be streamlined and simplified, with no duplication in how to get there - it is just a confusing waste of effort, time and resources which would be much better directed elsewhere. What is an electrician? Define one. Then define to the route to get there. Then find how many in the industry agree with your definitions. This is why we need to simplfy. I have no idea what AM2 is for example. I have no interest in it. I don't know who it is meant to serve nor in what way. I Just know it has nothing to do with C&G.

I went a strict C&G route and have never heard of some of these so-called courses. Why do they exist and can we do away with them?

Streamline and simplfy - cut out all needless duplication of effort and aim at what actually does the job instead.