Regulation about equipment in lofts ie inverters

Im more used to dealing with and looking at electric vehicle battery fires, or certainly the impact of those. Now I appreaciate lots of diffrent types of Lithium battery packs in the market place, so others on here may be better placed to say if Im making same comparrison or not. When an electric vehicle Lithium battery starts exothermic runaway. Before there is any serious heat or naked flames, the battery discharges various very nasty gases including flammable gases. Those that have been close or seen an EV battery fire actually comment that those gases look like "Steam" they are actually toxic and flammable electrolyte gases and average ignition of those flammable gases occur in 5% of EV battery fires.

So my question is albeit possbly smaller scale, if you had a battery event in a loft of a dwelling, are we likley to see the same flammable and toxic gases be produced? If they can be produced given confined space of the attic and non Ex certified electrics and all sorts of ignition sources in the loft, could we have those gases being ignited? The flammable gases produced can be both heavier and lighter than air, so again penetrations in the loft floor/ceiling allows ingress into the rooms below?

I know I sound like prophet of doom this morning, and manufacturers will say everything ok and it would be an extreme event, but future safety standards and regulations often come about because of a tragic event. If inverter lithium batteries behave in a similar way to an EV battery fire, I would not be putting them in any loft or confined space.

Regards GTB

Im more used to dealing with and looking at electric vehicle battery fires, or certainly the impact of those. Now I appreaciate lots of diffrent types of Lithium battery packs in the market place, so others on here may be better placed to say if Im making same comparrison or not. When an electric vehicle Lithium battery starts exothermic runaway. Before there is any serious heat or naked flames, the battery discharges various very nasty gases including flammable gases. Those that have been close or seen an EV battery fire actually comment that those gases look like "Steam" they are actually toxic and flammable electrolyte gases and average ignition of those flammable gases occur in 5% of EV battery fires.

So my question is albeit possbly smaller scale, if you had a battery event in a loft of a dwelling, are we likley to see the same flammable and toxic gases be produced? If they can be produced given confined space of the attic and non Ex certified electrics and all sorts of ignition sources in the loft, could we have those gases being ignited? The flammable gases produced can be both heavier and lighter than air, so again penetrations in the loft floor/ceiling allows ingress into the rooms below?

I know I sound like prophet of doom this morning, and manufacturers will say everything ok and it would be an extreme event, but future safety standards and regulations often come about because of a tragic event. If inverter lithium batteries behave in a similar way to an EV battery fire, I would not be putting them in any loft or confined space.

Regards GTB

GTB said:

I would not be putting them in any loft or confined space.

So, GTB, would you have one anywhere indoors?

If the battery cables should be as short as possible, then perhaps a gable end, but it would look rather unsightly.

Chris,

If it is my own home, then I wouldn't have battery storage within my main dwelling building, would be external to the building structure, in a suitable ventilated metal enclosure, unless the battery housing already met those conditions. 

For other properties, it would be the "Designers" responsibility taking into account manufacturers instructions, and standards, including all appropriate electrical standards and building standards applicable at the time for size and type of system and type of property where the battery storage should be located. The "Designer" would I hope take into account use of the building and type of persons within taht building and what the fire risk assessment indicates.

One would hope better chance of things being considered in a industrial and commercial property and pushing it a retail one. But for general dwellings, sadly dont see the battery storage being considered.

Regards GTB. 

It's odd how we "feel" about risk. Now my HP is in and seems to be working well I'm about to have the gas supply disconnected - so it occurs to me: what if the situation was reversed? How could I persuade someone to accept a mains gas supply that they hadn't had before - an almost infinite uncontrolled supply of highly flammable/explosive invisible gas, fed through single skin copper pipes (probably with soldered joints that will likely melt during a house fire) feeding appliances that can turn that gas into something that's very toxic (carbon monoxide) and involves flames at hundreds of degrees contained in a flimsy metal box within living spaces of the home. Doesn't sound that good even before you add in regular evidence of whole houses simply disappearing in a gas explosion.  Yet most of us find that perfectly acceptable.

   - Andy.

Exactly, its what we all consider to be acceptable risk! Working next to say open water 3M deep and no barrier/fence and the swimmer and non-swimmer will have diffrent views on the risk.

I like your analogy with HP and mains gas supply, very good I did like that thought. I suppose it is because going back in history (Town gas and carried tin pipes within houses!) and then mains natural gas that we did have those catastrophic explosions and materials, method of install standards and dare I mention it, only competent installation and service and maintenance technicians carrying out work on those systems. The demise of individuals and families in properties due to poor combustion, flues and carbon monoxide poisoning.

Asbestos used without a thought for safety until people starting becoming unwell and passing away.

So technology and new materials and inventions always come first, then standards, procedures follow on, usually after people understand in the "Rush" to get the product to market and a profit some risks were not fully understood, identified or considered.

Im more than happy with my mains gas supply etc in my dwelling, because of the "Learning curve" to get it safe ALARP.

Yes, being a pessimist I will stand back and watch what unfolds with new materials and equipment.

Cheers GTB 

Well, yes. Many years ago, a neighbour would not have gas in his house.

Then of course, we had open fires with the risk of setting fire to a polyester nightgown, or falling into it, etc. However, we also learned about fireguards and not to play with matches.

My house used to be lit by gas, which was made on the premises - mains gas had not yet reached the parish.

Historically, the reference points for comparison against gas were candles for lighting and solid fuel fires or stoves for cooking and heating, by comparison gas was a big improvement, easier to light and use, cleaner burning and the appliances were generally safer. And of course the risk from leakage is reduced by gas having an odorant, so people smell it and take action. Plus today, modern gas appliances typically have loss-of-ignition shut-offs, some appliances have oxygen monitoring and carbon monoxide detectors are readily available.

Electricity is and remains the superior form of energy, but of course in Britain and with the way we run and regulate our electricity system and industry, it's significantly more expensive that gas - with electricity around 4x the cost of gas, gas remains the more competitive energy type for many applications.