Peter Brooks said:

Is this shortage of people willing to join these professions, due to fear of being zapped?

My personal suspicion is that it's more due to the shortage of medium / large companies that can cope with taking on apprentices. Despite the various initiatives to promote apprenticeships in recent years it's hard to see how they can succeed without large enough employers who can devote sufficient resources to supervising / training them.

Hello Andy:

I am missing something in your response.

Why does training in such thing as solar panel installation or heat pump operation and installation, require an apprenticeship with support from a medium sized employer?

Here in Florida we have community colleges that have educational courses for brewing beer, professional cooking, solar panel installation, AC/heat pump maintenance, how to create secure IT systems etc. One signs up for a course and pays a fairly small amount of money for 3 -6 moths of "hands on" training. 

Peter

I think this could be a discussion thread by itself!

One issue, is that there seems to be a perception that there are easier ways to make money, it used to be that everyone wanted to be a professional sportsperson or musician, but it seems to be everyone wants to be some form on influencer these days.

The other is having opportunities. Yes, we have colleges that offer a variety of courses at a fairly small amount of money (but consider perception here, for some people that small amount looks significant).

You can find courses as a bricklayer, plumber, electrician, etc. But there is no guarantee that you will find a job after completion. So its a little risky to sink your own money, especially if you don't have a lot. And lets be fair here, the richer families will generally send their children to university (no guarantee of a job after that either).

Apprenticeships are the better option, as they pay a wage and the training is paid for. In the UK, large companies have to pay a tax which funds apprenticeships, which smaller companies can draw on. So effectively the training is free to the company (but not quite).

And this leads to the other problem. Many companies simply don't want to pay for training. They complain incessantly that school leavers don't have the skills. But someone has to provide those skills and you can't expect it to be entirely the schools as they neither have the resources or experience.

As a parent, I spoke with the teacher at my childs first ever school, what did they expect of a 4 year old. They told me, they wanted a child that was open to learning. They didn't expect the child to be able to read or write (ok, they wanted the child potty trained as well).

Companies need to have the same attitude, they need school leavers that are ready to apply themselves and ready for the next phase of learning. That might include numeracy, communication skills and a grounding in other subjects as needed. But any specific work skills should be taught by industry.

UK apprenticeships are regulated to an extent, the company is expected to provide training as part of it if they want to be reimbursed. Therefore Andy's point, you need a volume of suitable apprenticeships to bring in the new blood. Because the rest of the industry is waiting for fully trained people, and they will be waiting a long time.

Hello Mark:

A couple of additional facts about the US:- Most States (including Florida) have 529 programs (pre-paid college education funds) which can be opened when the child in born. The parents (or grandparents) can contribute money each year into the fund, which grows with time tax free, until the they are 18 years old and need it for higher education (whatever that can mean).

Using a Community Colleges (living locally at home) one can also get an AA 2 year degree, with guaranteed access to a State run University for another 2 years, for ones BS. 

Children start regular school at least one year later than in the UK. The US also had "Head Start" programs to get the young children socialized before stating regular school.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay  

Peter Brooks said:

Why does training in such thing as solar panel installation or heat pump operation and installation, require an apprenticeship with support from a medium sized employer?

Marks's covered quite a lot of the connection. Another I've always felt is that, without a company to sponsor / support / apprentice them, school leavers simply don't know (and never have known) what such jobs are about. I used to do a lot of STEM ambassador work in school, and something you find out very quickly is that vanishingly few school pupils, of any age, have a clue what any of the technical professions are - except games designer. And there's no reason why they would, they'll have come across teachers, doctors, nurses, shop assistants, hairdressers, ok maybe possibly car mechanics. But there's no reason in their day-to-day life why they would have any more than the vaguest awareness of what most technical roles involve. (Ditto for most adults!) Now when I left school in the 1970s this may have been less of an issue, for example near where I lived in London there was a whole road (the Great Cambridge Road) full of Thorn EMI factories. A school leaver may have had no idea what a job there actually entailed, but they knew you could "go there and get a job" - or maybe "go there and learn a trade", such places were big enough to vacuum up school leavers and work out what to do with them later. (Not this this was to last much longer as it turned out.) These days it feels like it's up to the school or college leaver to push into an employer by explaining why they will be an asset rather than a burden on them - when that school / college leaver is unlikely to know what the job is about in the first place.

So, together with Mark's points my belief is this is part of why you end up with issue - you can put on as many college courses as you like, but school leavers won't apply for them if they don't understand what they are, and they still won't help if those who do choose them can't get a job when they leave.

Which comes on to actually the main reason I wrote what I did. No college education alone qualifies you to actually work in any technical area, there's always on the job experience needed as well. Mark touches on the fact that employers want staff who are already skilled and experienced, and there's a really good reason for this - a typical (say) 3,4,5 person business often simply cannot afford to lose one of its staff supervising an apprentice (or trainee if you like), because they have the double whammy of paying the trainee who is not significantly delivering and their supervisor / trainer is now delivering less work. A medium / large company has a chance of covering this overhead, a small company is going to really struggle. And, of course, all kudos to those who do it anyway! 

So back to your original point Peter, my feeling is that pretty much any school leaver would be pretty horrified at the thought of working on something which could kill them if they touched it, and those that aren't probably shouldn't be allowed near it, but some will start a job where they will learn how to cope and even enjoy it (the job, not the electric shock!). The challenge is, who is going to give them that job? And how can we free up supervising staff to make more of those jobs available?

I don't think there's an easy answer to this in the UK at least, it's been a growing problem since the UK government decided to exit manufacturing in the late 70s / early 80s (and I'm neither criticising or defending that decision, it just was what it was). Personally I tend to feel that the most likely arrangement to work to start apprenticeships moving again on any sort of scale is that training (not just education) becomes much more college based, with students spending short duration placements across a number of local businesses, so that each business is not overly burdened with having to supervise them. But of course there has to be a short term payoff for the business for this to work. And there's still the challenge of attracting school leavers in the first place. 

Hello Andy:

I am well aware of the hollowing out of industry in the 1970's and the out-sourcing of (for example machine shops) functions to small "village" operations outside (example) Cambridge. One of my wife's family owned and operated such a one man village machine shop.

The hollowing out process is still going on with the Steel works in Wales, which will effectively eliminate the production of steel from iron ore and only uses "out sourced" pig iron.

I saw an article the other day that claimed if you remove assets created by "The City" the rest of the country becomes a 3rd rate country like Cuba. 

It is not a good view from here!

Peter 

Hello Andy: You mentioned being a STEM ambassador at schools. I assume this was an unpaid volunteer position!  Why did you do this?

I bring this question up because there appears to be a stigma associated with volunteering (not being paid) for helping out, in the UK at this time.

Fully retired engineers need to have a purpose in their lives and should be a good source for volunteers. I personally volunteered a couple days a week for over 15 years in our local hospital and learned a lot.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

Peter Brooks said:

I assume this was an unpaid volunteer position! 

Very much so - to the extent that I spent quite a bit of my own money on tools and equipment! Ok, here's the story, a few of us got together to enter Robot Wars (BattleBots in the US) in the late '90s, when it was huge on TV, and because we got known locally we got invited to take our "robot" into schools to talk about it. That led onto helping a school with their robot project, which then led us into finding out about a school spin-off (not televised) of Robot Wars which we decided to enter with our own children (who went to a very relaxed primary / elementary school). And next thing we knew we were running an engineering club there which was great fun. I ended up designing and running several inter-school challenges, working very closely with our regional STEM Ambassador co-ordinator.

I stopped mainly because more and more people (mostly ex-teachers) started doing the same thing professionally, and to be honest I got fed up doing something for free when the person next to me, doing the same thing, was being paid for it. Also, quite a lot of what I did was IET funded, however the IET decided to stop funding individual projects and target national activities instead (fair enough). Plus I really enjoyed working with 5-13 year olds, and 16-18 year olds, but found myself doing several sessions with the group in between who are - as any teacher will agree - challenging. 

(Just remembered, at the time I stopped I was also doing my Masters degree while at the same time trying to bring a major development project to delivery while at the same time restructuring our engineering department, having taken over from the engineering manager who was off with stress. I feel a bit better now about not being able to cope with other people's hormonal teenagers just then! I had two of my own at that time as well...) 

But mostly it was great fun and I'd highly recommend it, I spent an awful lot of my spare time over 10 years doing it, fortunately there's a tradition in our part of the UK of the work week ending at lunchtime on Friday, which gave an afternoon a week in term time to do this stuff. 

Peter Brooks said:

I bring this question up because there appears to be a stigma associated with volunteering (not being paid) for helping out, in the UK at this time.

If there is I'm not seeing it! I currently work 4 days a week, but I'm looking to move down to 3 if a can as I'm struggling to find time for work among the amount of volunteering I'm doing, the assumption amongst the sort of people I get involved is "why work when you can have much more fun volunteering" (but of course this is a self-selected group of a certain age and, generally but not always, past income).

What can create an issue is the attitude that people "ought" to volunteer (and, tbh, this can come across in the IET sometimes). Volunteering needs to be voluntary, persuasion and encouragement is good, "guilt tripping" definitely isn't.

The other conflict that regularly happens is between "professionals" and "volunteers" - rather like my example above. My wife's worked in the charitable sector for very many years, and I've also been involved in it in various ways including as a trustee, and it is an incredibly difficult balance. The charities can't survive without volunteers, but it's a management nightmare as volunteers can decide to do whatever they want. You see some professionals treating highly skilled and experienced volunteers like children, and some volunteers (perhaps in consequence) acting like it! 

Peter Brooks said:

I assume this was an unpaid volunteer position! 

Very much so - to the extent that I spent quite a bit of my own money on tools and equipment! Ok, here's the story, a few of us got together to enter Robot Wars (BattleBots in the US) in the late '90s, when it was huge on TV, and because we got known locally we got invited to take our "robot" into schools to talk about it. That led onto helping a school with their robot project, which then led us into finding out about a school spin-off (not televised) of Robot Wars which we decided to enter with our own children (who went to a very relaxed primary / elementary school). And next thing we knew we were running an engineering club there which was great fun. I ended up designing and running several inter-school challenges, working very closely with our regional STEM Ambassador co-ordinator.

I stopped mainly because more and more people (mostly ex-teachers) started doing the same thing professionally, and to be honest I got fed up doing something for free when the person next to me, doing the same thing, was being paid for it. Also, quite a lot of what I did was IET funded, however the IET decided to stop funding individual projects and target national activities instead (fair enough). Plus I really enjoyed working with 5-13 year olds, and 16-18 year olds, but found myself doing several sessions with the group in between who are - as any teacher will agree - challenging. 

(Just remembered, at the time I stopped I was also doing my Masters degree while at the same time trying to bring a major development project to delivery while at the same time restructuring our engineering department, having taken over from the engineering manager who was off with stress. I feel a bit better now about not being able to cope with other people's hormonal teenagers just then! I had two of my own at that time as well...) 

But mostly it was great fun and I'd highly recommend it, I spent an awful lot of my spare time over 10 years doing it, fortunately there's a tradition in our part of the UK of the work week ending at lunchtime on Friday, which gave an afternoon a week in term time to do this stuff. 

Peter Brooks said:

I bring this question up because there appears to be a stigma associated with volunteering (not being paid) for helping out, in the UK at this time.

If there is I'm not seeing it! I currently work 4 days a week, but I'm looking to move down to 3 if a can as I'm struggling to find time for work among the amount of volunteering I'm doing, the assumption amongst the sort of people I get involved is "why work when you can have much more fun volunteering" (but of course this is a self-selected group of a certain age and, generally but not always, past income).

What can create an issue is the attitude that people "ought" to volunteer (and, tbh, this can come across in the IET sometimes). Volunteering needs to be voluntary, persuasion and encouragement is good, "guilt tripping" definitely isn't.

The other conflict that regularly happens is between "professionals" and "volunteers" - rather like my example above. My wife's worked in the charitable sector for very many years, and I've also been involved in it in various ways including as a trustee, and it is an incredibly difficult balance. The charities can't survive without volunteers, but it's a management nightmare as volunteers can decide to do whatever they want. You see some professionals treating highly skilled and experienced volunteers like children, and some volunteers (perhaps in consequence) acting like it! 

There are plenty of us STEM Ambassadors around!

Many medium and larger companies now offer a small (really small) amount of paid volunteering time as part of their social impact. I don't think its a particularly new idea either, I can think of some companies that were doing similar things a couple of decades ago at least.

But I agree with Andy, volunteering is best if it is something you enjoy. The nice thing about STEM Ambassadors is that their is a variety of activities that pop-up and you can choose what interests you.

Hello Andy:

There is a lot to unpack in your response so my answers may be come back in separate parts.

All volunteer jobs appear to end with a disagreement with ones priorities and those of controlling management after organizational changes.

Example disagreement over population priorities- Low income comes first while management wants to emphasize medium to high income people, for political reasons. 

You mentioned Friday work ends at lunch time is common practice in your area. There appears to be great pressure in the UK for a four day week for the same wage as a five day week. How productive is that?

Here in our area the big companies work 4 days week each lasting for 10 working hours - Friday is completely off. 

As regards working with kids I have a story to tell - My wife used to volunteer in the school clinics following approximately the same group of children from primary, middle and finally high school, as my own children progressed through the education system. She found out that the kids that disrupted classes (ended up going to the clinic) at primary school at 6 years old, were usually the ones that ended up with a criminal record in their teens.

Regarding bringing kids up -- they don't become fully human until they reach 24 years old based on brain scans. Girls can be a real pain in the early teenage years.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay  

Let's pull you up on that. They don't become fully mature until they are in their mid 20's. I assume you are referring to brain development because, some other aspects do mature earlier. But yes, there is research showing that emotional maturity comes later.

They are always fully human from birth (by definition).

Ah, for your other question. There is ample research from the Nordic countries supporting shorter working weeks but still remaining competitive. There are also a lot of companies that inflate their productivity by ignoring unpaid working time.

This is sort of drifting away from the original thread question now.

Getting a little back on topic...

Volunteering can be helpful to professional registration because it lets you practise some of the competencies in a different environment and often experience responsibilities that might not be feasible at the current point in your career. This can be particularly true for the CDE competencies.

So yes it is unpaid, but it can benefit the local community, and it has developmental benefits for the person involved. Therefore if you are put off from professional registration because you are not robustly demonstrating certain competencies in your day job, volunteering may be one option to help.

Mark Tickner said:

Volunteering can be helpful to professional registration because it lets you practise some of the competencies in a different environment and often experience responsibilities that might not be feasible at the current point in your career. This can be particularly true for the CDE competencies.

Quite. At the point where I became a school H&S governor I was experienced in functional safety, but not necessarily H&S. However I was also a team leader evolving to a department manager, and the H&S training and experience I got in the governor role (including experience of being audited) was hugely applicable to my development in the day job. For others the same very much applies through e.g. sports coaching, cadet forces etc.

Hello Mark:- "Fully" is the key word here.

For example when making a will the lawyers will often suggest that any money being left for a young adult, be spread over a period from 18 to 30 years, due to their inability to responsively handle money.

Physical development is only one component of maturity.

I also draw your attention to the current mental health problems experienced with many teenage females. 

By the way some US nurses in hospitals work 12 hours for 3 days a week, so there is fewer between  shift communication problems. 

Nordic countries tend to have different attitudes to work than many countries, such as the US.

Having worked in Asian countries I discovered they work like hell when they are young, to meet their retirement goals.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

Hello Mark:

This afternoon in JAMA , a medical research article titled "Sex differences in the global prevalence of non suicidal self-injury in adolescents" by Fiona Moloney highlights that in most of the world females are more likely to experience mental related problems, however in Asia the opposite is true, that is more males are impacted.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

I think there may actually be a long term problem with mental health and the use of electronics as a source of 'chat' rather than having real friends of the kind you can actually hit if they offend you.
It may be that about now we are me or less as it was with smoking and various lung diseases when I was a child,  we are at the stage where we cannot say 'cause' or 'co-incidence' .

And for those who wonder coincidence happens

The Storks and Baby paper

 M

Hello:-

When I took my first Statistics course we were all warned "It may have a probability of "one in a ten million" but don't be surprised when it happens to you"!

I happen to really believe in "Black Swan" events (long tail events for normal distribution).  It happens because we have an incomplete  or a biased knowledge base.

Having worked in leading edge tech areas I discovered (for example) that metals in very thin films act completely different to those in "bulk" situations. 

Your "Storks" example could just as well have been "Easter eggs" laid by Rabbits. 

My reference to "Asians" is a more generic term to that quoted in the research paper, which could have upset the IET leadership. 

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay