Peter Brooks said:

Is this shortage of people willing to join these professions, due to fear of being zapped?

My personal suspicion is that it's more due to the shortage of medium / large companies that can cope with taking on apprentices. Despite the various initiatives to promote apprenticeships in recent years it's hard to see how they can succeed without large enough employers who can devote sufficient resources to supervising / training them.

Hello Andy: You mentioned being a STEM ambassador at schools. I assume this was an unpaid volunteer position!  Why did you do this?

I bring this question up because there appears to be a stigma associated with volunteering (not being paid) for helping out, in the UK at this time.

Fully retired engineers need to have a purpose in their lives and should be a good source for volunteers. I personally volunteered a couple days a week for over 15 years in our local hospital and learned a lot.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

Peter Brooks said:

I assume this was an unpaid volunteer position! 

Very much so - to the extent that I spent quite a bit of my own money on tools and equipment! Ok, here's the story, a few of us got together to enter Robot Wars (BattleBots in the US) in the late '90s, when it was huge on TV, and because we got known locally we got invited to take our "robot" into schools to talk about it. That led onto helping a school with their robot project, which then led us into finding out about a school spin-off (not televised) of Robot Wars which we decided to enter with our own children (who went to a very relaxed primary / elementary school). And next thing we knew we were running an engineering club there which was great fun. I ended up designing and running several inter-school challenges, working very closely with our regional STEM Ambassador co-ordinator.

I stopped mainly because more and more people (mostly ex-teachers) started doing the same thing professionally, and to be honest I got fed up doing something for free when the person next to me, doing the same thing, was being paid for it. Also, quite a lot of what I did was IET funded, however the IET decided to stop funding individual projects and target national activities instead (fair enough). Plus I really enjoyed working with 5-13 year olds, and 16-18 year olds, but found myself doing several sessions with the group in between who are - as any teacher will agree - challenging. 

(Just remembered, at the time I stopped I was also doing my Masters degree while at the same time trying to bring a major development project to delivery while at the same time restructuring our engineering department, having taken over from the engineering manager who was off with stress. I feel a bit better now about not being able to cope with other people's hormonal teenagers just then! I had two of my own at that time as well...) 

But mostly it was great fun and I'd highly recommend it, I spent an awful lot of my spare time over 10 years doing it, fortunately there's a tradition in our part of the UK of the work week ending at lunchtime on Friday, which gave an afternoon a week in term time to do this stuff. 

Peter Brooks said:

I bring this question up because there appears to be a stigma associated with volunteering (not being paid) for helping out, in the UK at this time.

If there is I'm not seeing it! I currently work 4 days a week, but I'm looking to move down to 3 if a can as I'm struggling to find time for work among the amount of volunteering I'm doing, the assumption amongst the sort of people I get involved is "why work when you can have much more fun volunteering" (but of course this is a self-selected group of a certain age and, generally but not always, past income).

What can create an issue is the attitude that people "ought" to volunteer (and, tbh, this can come across in the IET sometimes). Volunteering needs to be voluntary, persuasion and encouragement is good, "guilt tripping" definitely isn't.

The other conflict that regularly happens is between "professionals" and "volunteers" - rather like my example above. My wife's worked in the charitable sector for very many years, and I've also been involved in it in various ways including as a trustee, and it is an incredibly difficult balance. The charities can't survive without volunteers, but it's a management nightmare as volunteers can decide to do whatever they want. You see some professionals treating highly skilled and experienced volunteers like children, and some volunteers (perhaps in consequence) acting like it! 

There are plenty of us STEM Ambassadors around!

Many medium and larger companies now offer a small (really small) amount of paid volunteering time as part of their social impact. I don't think its a particularly new idea either, I can think of some companies that were doing similar things a couple of decades ago at least.

But I agree with Andy, volunteering is best if it is something you enjoy. The nice thing about STEM Ambassadors is that their is a variety of activities that pop-up and you can choose what interests you.

I don’t know why you have the impression that there is a stigma associated with volunteering in the UK. Others have mentioned the STEM Ambassador programme which is a huge and successful nationwide programme of about 28000 volunteers. Far from being something just for retired engineers, I have done this for most of my career, and my company encourages our apprentices to join the programme, as they are best placed to attract school and college students choosing their careers. Additionally, there are around 300,000 school governors in the UK, which is the largest volunteer group in the country. Engineers are valued school governors. And of course the IET has a large body of volunteers working at many different roles within the organisation. I take part in all three of these voluntary roles and I know lots of others who do too.
You asked Andy: ‘Why did you do this?’ For me, the answer is that I like to use my experience to help others, and they appear to appreciate it.

Lee Nelson said:

Additionally, there are around 300,000 school governors in the UK, which is the largest volunteer group in the country. Engineers are valued school governors.

And indeed at the same time that I was a STEM ambassador I was also a school governor. Incidentally, if you are going to run an after-school engineering club it's very useful if you are also the H&S governor! (Not that that was why I was the H&S governor, it was just an unexpected bonus.) And, as you mention IET volunteering, I was also an IET school's liaison officer which in turn resulted in me to being a LN committee member and events organiser.

However, I would re-iterate that in my experience the people who tend to volunteer do tend to volunteer for many different things at once. And then there are many others who don't volunteer for anything. So it is hard to judge quite what proportion of the population do volunteer. I'd say that all my friends do, but then that's probably why they're my friends, like minds and all that!

To drag this a bit back on topic, throughout the time I've been volunteering (in various roles) for the IET I've been hugely frustrated at the disproportionately high numbers of retired IET volunteers. Not to criticise retired engineers who want to volunteer, that's great, but as a mid-career engineer seeking professional registration wouldn't you like to see your peer group involved in the process? One of the things that put me off joining and registering for many years was the perception that it was an "old boys club". I quite passionately believe that we need to get more working engineers involved in the professional registration process so that it is very clearly a peer review. Now I'm aware that there's a level of hypocrisy here as I've never volunteered as an assessor / interviewer because I couldn't / can't work out how to fit it around the day job. That said it should be much easier now we have moved from face-to-face interviews to online so that assessors / interviewers are no longer having to give up a whole day to it (including potentially travelling). And anyway, PRA work is very easy to fit around a work schedule.

I am regularly trying to persuade my colleagues to PRA / assess / interview without success, and often the response is "maybe when I retire" - I really think we need to find a way to encourage more people to do it now. 

Hello Andy:

There is a lot to unpack in your response so my answers may be come back in separate parts.

All volunteer jobs appear to end with a disagreement with ones priorities and those of controlling management after organizational changes.

Example disagreement over population priorities- Low income comes first while management wants to emphasize medium to high income people, for political reasons. 

You mentioned Friday work ends at lunch time is common practice in your area. There appears to be great pressure in the UK for a four day week for the same wage as a five day week. How productive is that?

Here in our area the big companies work 4 days week each lasting for 10 working hours - Friday is completely off. 

As regards working with kids I have a story to tell - My wife used to volunteer in the school clinics following approximately the same group of children from primary, middle and finally high school, as my own children progressed through the education system. She found out that the kids that disrupted classes (ended up going to the clinic) at primary school at 6 years old, were usually the ones that ended up with a criminal record in their teens.

Regarding bringing kids up -- they don't become fully human until they reach 24 years old based on brain scans. Girls can be a real pain in the early teenage years.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay  

Let's pull you up on that. They don't become fully mature until they are in their mid 20's. I assume you are referring to brain development because, some other aspects do mature earlier. But yes, there is research showing that emotional maturity comes later.

They are always fully human from birth (by definition).

Ah, for your other question. There is ample research from the Nordic countries supporting shorter working weeks but still remaining competitive. There are also a lot of companies that inflate their productivity by ignoring unpaid working time.

This is sort of drifting away from the original thread question now.

Getting a little back on topic...

Volunteering can be helpful to professional registration because it lets you practise some of the competencies in a different environment and often experience responsibilities that might not be feasible at the current point in your career. This can be particularly true for the CDE competencies.

So yes it is unpaid, but it can benefit the local community, and it has developmental benefits for the person involved. Therefore if you are put off from professional registration because you are not robustly demonstrating certain competencies in your day job, volunteering may be one option to help.

Mark Tickner said:

Volunteering can be helpful to professional registration because it lets you practise some of the competencies in a different environment and often experience responsibilities that might not be feasible at the current point in your career. This can be particularly true for the CDE competencies.

Quite. At the point where I became a school H&S governor I was experienced in functional safety, but not necessarily H&S. However I was also a team leader evolving to a department manager, and the H&S training and experience I got in the governor role (including experience of being audited) was hugely applicable to my development in the day job. For others the same very much applies through e.g. sports coaching, cadet forces etc.

Hello Lee:

I failed to answer your question about my statement concerning there being a apparent sigma against volunteering in the UK.

When my wife and I decided to attack social issues by volunteering here in the US - I was greeted by scorn from my older UK based family members.

Recent UK roadside video interviews with people discussing the government plan for young people to either serve in the armed forces for 1 year or to do community service (volunteering), indicated the complete rejection of the latter option, by teenagers.

Here is the US, teenagers expecting to go into University are told to get a certificate showing they have completed 50 hours of volunteering, in order to improve their chances of being accepted, by their chosen University.  

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

Hello Mark:- "Fully" is the key word here.

For example when making a will the lawyers will often suggest that any money being left for a young adult, be spread over a period from 18 to 30 years, due to their inability to responsively handle money.

Physical development is only one component of maturity.

I also draw your attention to the current mental health problems experienced with many teenage females. 

By the way some US nurses in hospitals work 12 hours for 3 days a week, so there is fewer between  shift communication problems. 

Nordic countries tend to have different attitudes to work than many countries, such as the US.

Having worked in Asian countries I discovered they work like hell when they are young, to meet their retirement goals.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

Hello Mark:- "Fully" is the key word here.

For example when making a will the lawyers will often suggest that any money being left for a young adult, be spread over a period from 18 to 30 years, due to their inability to responsively handle money.

Physical development is only one component of maturity.

I also draw your attention to the current mental health problems experienced with many teenage females. 

By the way some US nurses in hospitals work 12 hours for 3 days a week, so there is fewer between  shift communication problems. 

Nordic countries tend to have different attitudes to work than many countries, such as the US.

Having worked in Asian countries I discovered they work like hell when they are young, to meet their retirement goals.

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay 

I think there may actually be a long term problem with mental health and the use of electronics as a source of 'chat' rather than having real friends of the kind you can actually hit if they offend you.
It may be that about now we are me or less as it was with smoking and various lung diseases when I was a child,  we are at the stage where we cannot say 'cause' or 'co-incidence' .

And for those who wonder coincidence happens

The Storks and Baby paper

 M

Hello:-

When I took my first Statistics course we were all warned "It may have a probability of "one in a ten million" but don't be surprised when it happens to you"!

I happen to really believe in "Black Swan" events (long tail events for normal distribution).  It happens because we have an incomplete  or a biased knowledge base.

Having worked in leading edge tech areas I discovered (for example) that metals in very thin films act completely different to those in "bulk" situations. 

Your "Storks" example could just as well have been "Easter eggs" laid by Rabbits. 

My reference to "Asians" is a more generic term to that quoted in the research paper, which could have upset the IET leadership. 

Peter Brooks

Palm Bay