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BEng to CEng registraiton

Ben Harvey
Hello,


I recently graduated from Lancaster University with a BEng honours degree while working full time as an electrical technician in 2016.


My experience from high school includes working as an electrician from 2007 to 2014 and an electrical technician from 2014 to 2016. I also worked as an electrician in Australia in 2017.


I recently joined a engineering consultancy in February 2018 and they are keen for their graduates to go for chartership after 4 years, however im worried i will not be able to achieve this goal as i am not educated up to MEng level. Would the next steps for me be applying for Engtech then IEng and finally CEng registration? It is really confusing as people are telling me i need to go back to University, but i cannot really afford this option while working full time also.


Any advice would be greatly appreciated with what steps to do next for me to achieve CEng status.


Thanks

Ben




  • 0
    Wow, have they actually set the target of 4 years?


    I'd expect that very few people actually do it within 4 years, I believe that it usually takes considerably longer (although I've had young graduates within my company who had the expectation that they could do it in 6 months!).


    You need to prove that you have training to masters level, that can't be done in parallel with demonstrating the competencies.    I would expect that would take you a year or two at least.  For the competencies you need to get opportunities within your employer to demonstrate those competencies (although volunteering on IET committees is useful too).
  • 0
    For a little (but maybe not sufficient) clarity, the requirement is just to demonstrate the knowledge and understanding, the process is completely neutral as to how you've obtained it. Having a Masters degree is simply the rest easy to avoid having to find and submit the evidence that you have the k&u. The use of the word Masters is simply a way to indicate the level expected of that k&u.


    Admittedly, there's the rub, understanding what constitutes Masters level K&U, but that's where consulting a PRA comes in.  If you haven't already, I'd urge you to ask the Institute to allocate you a PRA, and consult early. You can then use what the PRA advises you as the basis for a discussion with your employer/manager.


    There's no question that, post Batchelors degree, you start learning the really helpful K&U for performing an engineering role, and it can mean that somebody who has followed that path provides, in practice, far stronger and more relevant K&U than the M.Eng, though, of course,, that won't be reflected on paper or otherwise in the registration result, except in that it may give you a stronger base from which to demonstrate B competence.


    Naturally, everybody learns at different speeds, plus it depends on the learning opportunities offered by your work, so it's not impossible to gain the K&U rapidly, but other responses have given a feel for what is typical.


    In the meantime, can I encourage you to consider I.Eng, and to push that hard to your employer? If they respond (as many employers who don't really get the real meaning of these registrations do) by saying it's not enough, it's C.Eng or nothing, I would encourage you to challenge that view. If you have the appetite to do so, feel free to contact me, I can provide you with a good body of persuasive argument to change their minds, and am keen to do so as there is a real need to change those mindsets.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member

    Ben Harvey:

    I recently joined a engineering consultancy in February 2018 and they are keen for their graduates to go for chartership after 4 years




    Ben, if you've been offered the job unconditionally; that is to say there is nothing in writing that says your post is on condition you have to achieve CEng registration after 4 years, then you've got nothing to worry about. But check with a trade union official or failing that, get a confirmation from HR.


    The worst thing that could happen after 4 years might be you staying on your current pay grade, instead of being elevated to a higher grade.


    Options for further education towards CEng would be part-time studies, including the OU.


    After 4 years, anything could happen? You could - by then-  find another better paid job, or gain promotion in your present company.


    Don't let yourself get into too much stress about this; and by all means, follow the advice you've been given to contact a PRA on building towards CEng registration.


    Lastly, enjoy the experience; that's why you chose engineering over other professions.


    Hope that helps.

  • 0
    Good advice Mehmood!
  • 0
    Ben, may I first of apologise for any conflicting muddle of impressions that you may have gained from different sources.


    You have developed your career, seemingly after leaving school  you became a skilled technician and then through that vocation began to realise that you had an aptitude for a more academic approach and an appetite for technical and/or managerial leadership. I’m assuming that your Degree was an accredited one, but even if it wasn’t. I don’t think that you need to embark on further academic study right now.  You just simply need to commit to being the best that you can be and adding value to your employer.  I would anticipate that your employer has read UK-SPEC and that so have you. It gives examples in the (second column) of the sorts of things you might expect to see in an Chartered Engineer. So whatever the timescales, you need opportunities to practice these attributes, sometimes many times over with gradually increasing degrees of challenge and responsibility. This is similar to learning how to become a skilled Electrician/Technician but the skills are different and the intellectual challenges more demanding, hence the additional education and/or work-based learning expected.   


    This could be a very long post indeed, if I described in depth why things are so muddled.


    For many years the pathway to Chartered Engineer for most people was to complete a reputable engineering degree, gain employment as a “Graduate Trainee Engineer”, often being posted round different departments for 2 years, be promoted to a “junior” Engineer then over the next 2 years grow further responsible experience under supervision, before with your employer's support applying for CEng. This remains the “normal” pattern in many sectors, endorsed by professional institutions such as IET, IMechE and ICE.  Some employers are happy with a longer timescale, but some institutions and some employers strongly encourage the 4 year target timescale. The IET has tended to be fairly relaxed “come when you are ready”, anything less than 4-5 years post-graduation is exceptional, but you had plenty of work experience before your degree.  


    A problem was introduced in the noughties because Engineering Council decided that degrees accredited for Chartered Engineer should be 4 years long like an MEng instead of 3 like a BEng (full-time pathway). Therefore, they required Professional Institutions to demand evidence of “further learning to masters level” from aspirant Chartered Engineers holding Bachelors Degrees. Some employers committed to the “CEng model” reacted by only hiring MEng graduates, but that wasn’t practical for many employers. Often BEng graduates outperformed  MEng in the recruitment process and subsequently in the workplace anyway.


    People trying to give advice tend to quote Professional Institution “rules”. But in the case of, what is and isn’t “further learning”, these have never been clear and consistent across the range of professional institutions. IMechE for example required someone to study some modules at masters level. The IET wasn’t prescriptive, preferring instead to check knowledge and understanding during the CEng assessment process, other institutions demand an accredited masters, for others non-accredited was OK. Around all of this is a web of personal experiences, hearsay, rumour, interpretation and even outright mythology.


    Michael related a negative experience of seeking progressive transfer between IEng & CEng , some Professional Institutions such as ICE have promoted this and I don’t know how well this has worked for their members. In the IET the “pathway” has worked quite well for some people and terribly for others. There are threads in these forums with hundreds of posts in them debating the problem. I can only apologise to anyone who feels that they were misled or suffered some disadvantage. The IEng standard does represent being a perfectly competent engineer, but it wasn’t originally designed to be a “stepping-stone” to CEng and was hastily pressed into service without due thought and preparation. There are also perfectly valid Bachelor of Engineering Degrees accredited for IEng (not at Lancaster University when I checked) preparing equally good engineers to many that are CEng accredited, but subjected to academic snobbery from some quarters. Once again I can only apologise to anyone who has suffered any unfair prejudice or detriment. I am personally trying hard to resolve this.


    Michael also offered a link to an IET web-page, which is intended to help experienced engineers who find themselves needing to explain their work-based learning during the registration assessment process. The attachment explains Kingston University’s version of a “Gateways” MSc. A number of universities specialise in providing academic learning and certification through examples drawn for work experience whenever possible. I have seen early career graduates admitted to such programmes, but they are ideally optimised for more experienced professionals. The attachment is rather dated, Mike Hope recently retired and I am not sure if Peter Barrington is still associated with that programme.    


    Roy Pemberton mentioned Professional Registration Advisors, some companies also have in-house experienced engineers who are IET trained to help. This isn’t a perfectly consistent service, carried out as it is by an army of volunteers, but generally its useful if you recognise expert advice for what it is and don’t treat it as infallible gospel. Mehmood is offering the wise council of his long experience and perspective. I think that he, Roy P and I are all saying, enjoy your work, be as productive and effective as you can and the rest will come in due course. As Scott Said you don’t need a masters. I certainly wouldn’t advise you to prioritise one in the short-term, unless there is a really strong reason that your employer supports, it could hamper your productivity or lead to an unhealthy work-life balance. If you fancy a masters then by all means do one in future. For now just recognise the difference between “telling me back what I told you” (undergraduate) versus “these are my ideas based on my experience or research and these are my reasons for having them” (post-graduate).          

          

  • 0
    Ben,

    Roy Bowdler has described the scenario very accurately in my view (as I've come to expect)

    I'd just like to add though that, thoughh Michael has every entitlement to his own perspective on I.Eng, clearly tainted by personal negative experiences, I don't find that viewpoint particularly helpful to somebody in your situation.

    When I mentioned I.Eng, I was not doing so when the perspective of being a stepping stone to C.Rng - though it can be and turned out be so I'm case (and my experience was more positive), it wasn't my original game plan, and my suggestion to you was that is likely it's an attainable goal for you right now and is a worthy status to attain, being, as Roy says, representative of a senior professional engineer, typical of the bulk of good, effective engineers in the workplace. I suggested it as a means for you to declare to your employer, and the world at large "I'm a good engineer, I have a registration that has validated that, and I am entitled to walk tall". Seen in that perspective, and regardless of whether it not it's an effective stepping stone, it's a worthy declaration of your current status.

    The thing is that it is exactly the negative view put forward by Michael that the popularity of I.Rng had fallen, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Off you go for it, get it, think positively about it and trumpet your success to your employer and the world at large, regardless of what they're currently saying to you, your status evidenced by it is bound to be seen as a positive step in the right direction, and a demonstration of commitment. Ideally, it will enable you to put over the proof it gives of your suitability for your role, to "convert" on the topic and, as I already offered, I (and others) can provide you with material to use to that end - hopefully, coming from a C.Eng and Fellow who interviews candidates for award at both levels, that would be something they would take seriously, and if not, as Mehmood suggests, you have other options open to you. I, for one, when considering appointments, attach huge value to I.Eng. It's definitely preferable to "I don't have anything other than a degree to prove my worth".
  • 0
    Ben,

    Roy Bowdler has described the scenario very accurately in my view (as I've come to expect)

    I'd just like to add though that, thoughh Michael has every entitlement to his own perspective on I.Eng, clearly tainted by personal negative experiences, I don't find that viewpoint particularly helpful to somebody in your situation.

    When I mentioned I.Eng, I was not doing so with the perspective of being a stepping stone to C.Eng - though it can be and turned out be so in my case (and my experience was more positive), it wasn't my original game plan, and my suggestion to you was that it's likely it's an attainable goal for you right now and is a worthy status to attain, being, as Roy says, representative of a senior professional engineer, typical of the bulk of good, effective engineers in the workplace. I suggested it as a means for you to declare to your employer, and the world at large "I'm a good engineer, I have a registration that has validated that, and I am entitled to walk tall". Seen in that perspective, and regardless of whether or not it's an effective stepping stone, it's a worthy declaration of your current status.

    The thing is that it is due to exactly the kind of negative view put forward by Michael that the popularity of I.Eng has fallen, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you go for it, get it, think positively about it and trumpet your success to your employer and the world at large, regardless of what they're currently saying to you, your status evidenced by it is bound to be seen as a positive step in the right direction, and a demonstration of commitment. Ideally, it will enable you to put over the proof it gives of your suitability for your role, to "convert" them on the topic and, as I already offered, I (and others) can provide you with material to use to that end - hopefully, coming from a C.Eng and Fellow who interviews candidates for award at both levels, that would be something they would take seriously, and if not, as Mehmood suggests, you have other options open to you. I, for one, when considering appointments, attach huge value to I.Eng. It's definitely preferable to "I don't have anything other than a degree to prove my worth".
  • 0
    Thanks for all of your inputs to this discussion, I have read all the replies and given them a lot of thought. Roy, the degree I got from Lancaster University was regarded as partial CEng and it was a 4 year part time degree I don’t know if this helps you? With the financial restraints and having done full time jobs while completing part time studies for 8 years I am very hesistant at doing more studies at masters level, as I would rather progress my electrical design knowledge and become competent member of the team. However I have been told by some seniors without masters I stand no chance at gaining CEng status which is what I am striving to achieve. From the replies I will probably go for IEng status and then try and progress to CEng status afterwards if possible as it seems the sensible decision at this point in my career.
  • 0
    Ben,

    Personally, I think that's a good plan. As Mehmood said, enjoy yourself, it's why you joined the profession and anything could happen in the future, and as Roy Bowdler said, if pursuing a Masters was something you really wanted to do, then you should do it, if it's not, then you shouldn't.


    But to provide you with additional assurance, as an interviewer, I guarantee you that the advice those seniors have given you is simply not true! You stand every chance that, by pursuing the course of action you describe, you will build up your knowledge and understanding to a level that will gain you C.Eng. Whilst I don't have any statistics to hand, I can assure you that we regularly award C.Eng to people who don't hold a Masters, and I have a sneaking suspicion that, in the IET at least, they may even now outnumber those who do 

    Maybe those seniors are not Electrical Engineers? Maybe they're Civil Engineers? I believe the statement is much closer to true in the ICE. If they are members of the IET, they are, very simply, wrong.


    My gut feel is that you are currently ready for I.Eng, not yet C.Eng, and you may as well go for I.Eng to demonstrate your current position, but that, in the, due course of time, you will, as I did, be ready fur C.Eng.


    To be clear, so that I don't mislead you, whether you do go for I.Eng or not will not help or affect your path to C.Eng one jot, except indirectly, in that it may encourage people to offer you work that will help you progress to C.Eng. But If you don't go for it, you will still gradually gain further knowledge and understanding in the natural course of operating as an engineer that will help your progress, Andhra most likely lead you to readiness for C.Eng.. The reason I feel it would be worth you going for I.Eng is to demonstrate, on an immediate basis, to those who need to know, that you are already operating as a good, solid, competent engineer and have met a benchmark to prove it.


    But if you do so, don't get into the mindset that it's a second prize - be proud of it, trumpet it to everybody that will listen and even to those who are inclined not to.


    Whichever you decide, I strongly advise you to ask the Institute to put you in touch with a PRA. That will provide the ultimate confirmation of whether or not my gut feel is right. Who knows, they may advise you that you are already likely to be successful going for C.Eng!
  • 0
    Ben,

    To add on to the comments from the two Roys, who I have always found provide valuable advice, I would say that I also work in an engineering consultancy and have found a similar misconception regarding "no Masters = no CEng". Where I am it is certainly driven by experience of IMechE, and not even IMechE of today but IMechE of perhaps ten years ago, and my understanding is ICE is even more hidebound. I was told that in the IET the figure is 68% of CEng awards are to engineers without a Masters degree (though unfortunately I can't remember where I heard that so can't back it up), so don't worry on that score. If you set out to do your job to the best of your ability (hopefully enjoying it along the way) then everything else will probably fall into place. The only other advice I will offer is to suggest you get involved in the IET at a local level, attending meetings, etc.  This advice is partly as such activity will help in an application for registration in showing CPD, but mainly as it gets you into contact with other engineers in other areas and gives you a more rounded appreciation of the profession.

    Alasdair

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