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Calvin Asks: Is having Physics A-level a 'must have' to do an Engineering Degree?

CalvinTheEngineer
My son wants to be an engineer when he grows up. He is doing his GCSE’s this year and getting ready to choose his A-Levels, but his school has a new physics teacher, whom he HATES! He is now adamant he won’t be choosing physics at A-Level, but I’m worried that he’ll struggle to get onto an engineering course at a good university without it.


He doesn’t want to change schools as all his friends are staying; it’s one of the best schools in the area and local too, so I don’t really want him to have to move either. So my question is, does he need a physics A-Level or can he get by without it?


A-Level dilemmas - Darlington

 
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  • 0
    Dear Sir

    I read with interest the problem you have posted.

    I have a bit of a different approach for you to consider, however I have engaged with quantum physics to a great depth as I need to understand, as data transfer with fidelity expands, how I can achieve the requirement of precision and confidence of analysis.

    I did a real apprenticeship with Rolls-Royce 1971 following GCE's aged 16.

    I attained HNC engineering, and moved on to OU to complete a BSc in technology, to include Mathematics, Computing Science, Technology and Design.

    Now this is the interest option , check out Hereford University (its new and different) as they are looking at what I think the world of engineering now requires 'Technologists' who better link engineering science (all aspects and there are many) ,computer programming and most importantly encompass an 'holistic' vision.

    This is what I am, a technologist and with life wisdom, an insatiable appetite to still be operational in engineering science but with a focus on the technology NOT the management of the businesses.

    Hope this helps

    Best regards

    Chris AePS
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Hi - I think you may be asking the wrong questuion here. Maybe you could sit down with your son and ask why he does not like his teacher ("hates" is a very strong word!). I must admit whilst I really enjoyed chemistry and physics but having got high marks at 'O' level in chemistry - I am really that old - I was put into the top A level class where I struggled. I don't think the teacher liked me either. If you can encourage your son to keep at physics it will help him a lot. I gave up chemistry and was sad about it. We all have and will meet people we don't get on with, but try and make the best of it, it's not for long and remember "Experience is what you get when you are looking for something else!"

    i know a young man who is really fascinated with washing machines. He has about 40 and is becoming a real expert. He's just got a job in that field. Is you son interested ina particular branch of engineering? Encourage him by spending time with him, visiting museums and places he is interested in. Time itogether is what is really precious.

    Good luck,

    Martin Letts
  • 0

    Andy Millar:




    Emma Blackburn:

    I actually did Chemistry, Geography and English A levels. [...] It also had the advantage of broadening my knowledge ...




    Personally I couldn't agree more. I think at least one non-science subject is really useful for broadening the knowledge of undergraduate engineers - I wrote at length elsewhere that excellent engineering is about communicating with non-engineers to use technology to understand and then solve their problems in the context of their society. So pretty much any subject is going to come in useful here: English (or language of choice) and geography as you say, or history, art, drama, or (as in my case), music, sociology and psychology. (Ok, due to various constraints I only got half way through the first two at A level, but they were still very useful.) Probably lots of others I can't think of at the moment.


    I'm honestly not sure how university admissions departments view this - I expect it very much depends on the university?


    Students traditionally took 3 A Level subjects so it was a wise choice to ensure that the subjects were compatible with each other and relevant for the university course. A more modern practice is to take 3 A Levels and an AS Level which provides a greater opportunity for more diverse subject combinations. There are still questions about whether the fourth subject should be a potentially useful addition in terms of knowledge or very distant in terms of knowledge in relation to a university course or a career along with whether it is best to have a facilitating or non-facilitating subject.


    A / AS Levels in law, economics, or business studies, are potentially more useful in terms of knowledge to engineers than history, English literature, or Latin are, although the first group are non-facilitating subjects and the second group are traditional facilitating subjects. None of these subjects are particularly well understood by admissions tutors in engineering departments (as they are used to seeing STEM subjects) so the perception of a particular subject may differ. Pyschology and sociology are almost in a twilight zone as they are both non-facilitating subjects and unfamiliar to most admissions tutors.


    If an applicant has an unusual combination of A Level subjects, or subjects distant in terms of knowledge in relation to a university course, then it will amost certainly be queried in an interview.


    Personal enthusiasm for a subject distant in terms of knowledge in relation to a university course can impress. There was a case of an applicant for a physics degree who had an AS Level in classical civilisation (in addition to A Levels in mathematics, further mathematics, and physics) because he had a keen interest in ancient history and archaeology. However, picking a distant subject simply to broaden knowledge, or use the other side of your brain, will not always pay off.


    I'm not confident myself that arts and humanities A Levels (or any A Levels for that matter) are particularly helpful and beneficial when it comes to acquiring the skills to communicate technical stuff to a non-technical audience because they were not designed for that purpose. I think that reading various business communications books are a better choice. Very few engineers have ever studied English language beyond GCSE or technical and business English. This is an area that I feel needs more attention.
  • 0
    I would say no but my route into engineering was a bit different to most.


    Recommend that an A level in mathematics is a must.



    i didn’t do A levels at all.


    Went straight from school into military were I did a NVQ level 3 Telecommuinications Installation apprenticeship.


    after 7 1/2 years I left and trained as an electrician and went into industry with two trades
  • 0
    Going back to the original question, I can infer that the dilemma rests with a 15/16 year old, living in Darlington, who has expressed an aspiration to pursue a career in “Engineering” , with a parent who very wisely doesn’t want him to make poor choices for the wrong reasons, that might limit his options. The parent’s aspiration is for their son to attend a “good” university.  The attachment by the son to “following his friends in staying on” suggests that he isn’t at this stage focussed on gaining employment , although things can change quickly at that age , especially if age group peers have money in their pocket and you don’t. Not knowing the type(s) of engineering role he has become interested in and how much academic potential he has , makes the question is more difficult.  


    The easiest option is to keep “kicking the can down the road”. For example I met someone at an exhibition who was aged 23 and came along with their parent, they had a good engineering degree but no relevant work-experience, or clarity about how to turn this into a career.  At the time tuition fees were only £3000 pa. In that situation today that person could have a debt of £40000+. This is not an imaginary debt, never to be paid off, because someone with a degree in engineering should enjoy a career of above average earnings.  Most people over the age of 38 didn’t have to pay any fees to attend university and those older still may have been eligible for a government grant as well. I would have been eligible, but I didn’t have any role models to follow, thought that university was just for “swots” and got offered an apprenticeship by the best local employer.  I don’t know the family circumstances, but if they are less than “very comfortable” the financial aspect is important.


    I mentioned having a role model to follow,  likely to be  a major influence on a young person of that age, whether that person is a parent or someone else. Those who are most likely to attend the “best” universities, tend to have some family history of an advantaged education and social capital. It can be a great advantage in gaining access as a graduate to certain professions, to “know the right people”. This also applies to gaining an apprenticeship, although the two alternative pathways, have historically tended to attract different social classes, leading to some assumptions and prejudices.  Engineering is relatively meritocratic, so it isn’t much of a barrier to come “from the wrong side of the tracks” if you succeed academically, but I have encountered people from more disadvantaged backgrounds, who despite having done well academically (e.g. MEng) find themselves at a competitive disadvantage compared to peers.


    My question of the parent here is; do you potentially foresee your son studying at Teesside or Durham University?  Both offer some similar degree courses (e.g. MEng), one is held to be more “prestigious” than the other and sets a higher tariff, although both charge similar fees. The social and geographic profile of students will be different.  When it comes to gaining employment as a graduate engineer, I would expect that within the local market of employers in the area, someone from the Teesside programme would be at no disadvantage, some employers might have close links with the course for recruitment. Nationally and internationally the Durham graduate would potentially be at an advantage in certain situations. 


    Coming back to the issue of “Return on Investment”. I would suggest that; a Degree Apprenticeship or one including the option of  eventually gaining a degree by studying part-time with employer support, will very probably offer a better return over a lifetime, than being a full-time student at a typical post 92 university. Assuming that the apprenticeship option is available.  Study at a university that is considered prestigious (i.e. not just “good”, but “very exceptionally good”), with a highly competitive and academically selective admissions policy, has a better chance of producing a life time earnings premium, although this isn’t anywhere near as certain as some claim, relative to something like an apprenticeship, or other “more vocational” option.  It may also be the case that the social capital of those attending the more prestigious universities forms a large part of any advantage. If your son has aspirations to become a professor of engineering, of otherwise pursue a research orientated career, then the answer would obvious. Such careers may offer “above average”, rather than “high” financial rewards, but can be very satisfying and held in high esteem.  


    The landscape is changing, with the government and some universities promoting “Degree Apprenticeships” like this https://www.herts.ac.uk/degree-apprenticeships . Such options used to be have been around for a long time, although from the 1980s on a modest scale. This “new” model was at least part built on examples like a “Student Engineer and Commercial Student Training Programme” that I used to lead. Almost without exception, graduates of this programme are now in senior industry roles, including several directors by early 30s.  


    Publicity was given over the last weekend to “two-year degrees”. The BEng in Manufacturing Engineering at Wolverhampton University accelerated by work-based learning, came to my attention some time ago and I wish them well.  Talk at the weekend was of more intensive study , such as by longer hours and shorter holidays, for full-time undergraduates.


    If your son is highly intelligent and likely to gain admission to one of the most selective universities, then I would suggest “keeping his nose the academic grindstone”.  However probably the most important thing, that I would try to do for my son, is encourage him to identify and interact with different role models. Build social capital among those who might offer insight and/or be able to offer opportunities like work-experience.  


    Assuming that he doesn’t become frustrated or disillusioned by school, then he may have up to three years before “adult choices” come upon him. He can delay hard choices for a few more years by studying for a degree aligned to his talents , but this could be costly. You are probably familiar with university graduates in jobs that don’t need a degree, this doesn’t mean that the person or the degree course was “bad”, but simply that they weren’t able to access a “graduate level job” , where they wanted (or could afford) to live, or were outcompeted by others for the limited number of such jobs.   


    I appreciate that this is quite a long and complex answer to an apparently simple question.  I wish that the issues were simpler, like they were in the past for some of us , with if we were lucky our parents “Making Plans for Nigel” wink.

  • 0

    Emma Blackburn:

    I actually did Chemistry, Geography and English A levels. [...] It also had the advantage of broadening my knowledge ...




    Personally I couldn't agree more. I think at least one non-science subject is really useful for broadening the knowledge of undergraduate engineers - I wrote at length elsewhere that excellent engineering is about communicating with non-engineers to use technology to understand and then solve their problems in the context of their society. So pretty much any subject is going to come in useful here: English (or language of choice) and geography as you say, or history, art, drama, or (as in my case), music, sociology and psychology. (Ok, due to various constraints I only got half way through the first two at A level, but they were still very useful.) Probably lots of others I can't think of at the moment.


    I'm honestly not sure how university admissions departments view this - I expect it very much depends on the university?


    Excellent post!


    Cheers, Andy

  • 0
    HI 


    Just thought I'd add an alternative option here.  I did neither physics nor maths A levels and subsequently went onto an Aerospace Engineering Degree course (20 years as an air engineer and counting...).  I actually did Chemistry, Geography and English A levels. I then completed a 1 year foundation course, which covered the maths and physics elements I required. It also had the advantage of broadening my knowledge (I was on course with civil, electrical, mechanical and aircraft engineering students) and sorted the issue that was mentioned in an earlier post relating to schools' assumptions about students abilities, the teachers available and their interaction with your specific child and the occasional appearance of people like me who are neither completely scientific not completely language based people.


    Good luck with working through the plan :)

  • 0
    What is sneaky is that some universities demand TWO facilitating A Level subjects. Mathematics and physics are both facilitating. There have been cases when applicants for degrees in computer science (and similar courses) have been rejected because they have mathematics and computer science or mathematics and electronics as A Levels but they would probably have been accepted if instead of computer science or electronics they had chemistry, history, or even Latin because they are facilitating subjects despite them being less relevant to the degree course.
  • 0
    It is certainly possible to qualify for an engineering degree without having to do an A-Level in Physics as most Universities, particularly the ones within the Russell Group ask for an A-Level in Maths and a science subject i.e. Physics, Chemistry or Biology but preferably Physics. Another option, as mentioned by an earlier reply in the thread is to do an engineering BTEC Diploma which is a more practical form of education consisting of coursework & assignments rather than exams and universities will also set out the BTEC requirements needed if this route is followed. This will take the same amount of time as completing A-Levels and most sixth form colleges offer both BTEC and A-Levels. One thing to bear in mind if following the BTEC route is that often universities might require the student to complete a foundation year in order to cover higher level mathematical or scientific concepts which are not usually introduced within the BTEC engineering diplomas, so this will be an additional year to however long the Bachelors or Masters degree is. I have seen in the past that it may be allowed to do the BTEC course and an A-Level in mathematics as well but this will need to be discussed with sixth form faculty as timetabling is often an issue and I'm not certain this would mean a foundation year is not required. The best thing to do is have discussion  with your son to see if he has any preferences on which University he would like to go to or even just look through Universities together and then look at the requirements they ask for. 


    Regards,

    - Ghibson
  • 0
    No you don't.


    Technically you don't need A-levels at all to do an Engineering Degree (I certainly don't have any and I've got a Masters from a Russell group and a CEng!).


    It makes for a more complicated (and sometimes slower) path, but it is still do-able.  But finding a course you are happy with (and thus are more likely to succeed at) is more important then struggling with a subject you are unhappy with.  Selection of your post-GCSE learning is important as well, the school/college has to have the right learning environment.  This is the same when it comes to selecting Universities as well.

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