I think before rushing off, I'd like to ask the no.1 noddy question,  - what is the problem to which, if I understand it correctly, the electronic equivalent of an exam certificate or driving licence or whatever, held on a cloud server somewhere in the USA is the solution ?

I have a drawer of paper certs (that no-one ever asks to see, pretty much ever, incidentally * ) going back about 40 years, and no one is suggesting those need to be digitised, or are they?

How at the moment are 'proof of status' data exchanged, how would fraud, either injection of false data or loss of data and so forth be avoided  and shown to be  ?

I would agree the bar is low, very few exam certificates are apostillised or any thing like.

I'm not against the idea, but nor am I 'for' it - I'd like to know what it would achieve before deciding a position...

Mike

* there is the additional complication that in the UK we do not really share the 'papers please' culture of some other western countries,  and tend to trust CVs and so on, not always wisely.

 mapj1  Mike - Some great points. 

mapj1 said:

what is the problem to which, if I understand it correctly, the electronic equivalent of an exam certificate or driving licence or whatever, held on a cloud server somewhere in the USA is the solution ?

 - My view -

With social media becoming more and more important as well it's very easy for a person to state they have something or even state post nominals in our case but unless they can evidence this independently where's the verification. I take E5 here as well in that if a person is falsely claiming they say they are registered etc. and then another registered engineer identifies this then they are bound under E5 to report that fact. But in reality is that ever going to happen, or is it even possible to check? Well it is under EngC but again who's got the time... With digital credentials this is easy and verifiable. Furthermore although most badges as you rightly say are probably hosted in the cloud on an American server "Credly" is moving it to the blockchain which as I'm sure your aware is the ultimate in verification.

One other thing that is also a concern that I and others are at risk of, is fraudulently using our details because in say LinkedIn under licences and certifications to prove on has this to support post nominals in their title they need to put their membership number down or if prof reg'd their EngC reference. 

These can then be copied, this is a big issue with ECS cards. but with digital credentials this is no longer required improving confidentiality. 

mapj1 said:

I have a drawer of paper certs (that no-one ever asks to see, pretty much ever, incidentally * ) going back about 40 years, and no one is suggesting those need to be digitised, or are they?

- My view -

Digital credentials can only be applied to qualifications and licences deemed current by their awarding bodies or are available to be issued as agreed by their associated awarding bodies. So Mike from your profile, I think you have an electronics background so say one of those certs from back in the day i.e. 236 Parts 1 and 2 in your drawer, if you have this qual, if not their entry level electronics certs from C&G, so because of age would not attract a digital credential because this qual is not  current and C&G's policy would not authorise a badge for it ,so it stays as paper. If you know someone's child who's going onto Engineering T-level's this year they will attract a digital badge in 2024 as C&G now as standard issue them to support paper / e-certs.

mapj1 said:

How at the moment are 'proof of status' data exchanged, how would fraud, either injection of false data or loss of data and so forth be avoided  and shown to be

- My view -

Although I don't have an ISO cert to hand Credly, the platform managing digital badges would be ISO27001 certified, OK this isn't fool proof take Solarwinds hack but its as good as it can be, in a similar vain as you can buy a pretty good copy of say a CMI cert online and you could pass that off as your own to a potential employer demonstrating management competence. As we no nothings fool proof but Credly is recognised for their high standards. It's also important to note that Credly are instructed by the awarding body, so in our case the IET would control the accuracy of information to them and I'm sure as part of their QA they would be audited by the IET and other customer's routinely as well as ISO audits.

mapj1 said:

I would agree the bar is low, very few exam certificates are apostillised or any thing like.

- My view -

Yep this is digital apostillisation for sure, but the badge is separate to the original certificate, confirmation is done by the platform and then if there was any doubt an independent check with the awarding body would be needed. For example you can do RegCheck on EngC, so this would be the same but the badge would need to be checked by direct contact with the awarding body. I'm not aware of any hacks on this system as yet and once Blockchain takes over.. happy days on that front.

mapj1 said:

I'm not against the idea, but nor am I 'for' it - I'd like to know what it would achieve before deciding a position

- My view -

sustainability, simplicity, level playing field, confidentiality, rigour, visibility, future vision,

options for candidates - for example I want my digital badge and you may be happy with the cert in a frame on the wall

mapj1 said:

* there is the additional complication that in the UK we do not really share the 'papers please' culture of some other western countries,  and tend to trust CVs and so on, not always wisely.

- My view -

As above....

Thanks for the message though Mike, got me thinking hard on this one!

Cheers for taking the time to explain that.

I suspect that these 'selling points' if you permit,  will need to be stressed to gain traction with those grumpy sods who sometimes find themselves doing job interviews  of prospective candidates  for engineering design, consultancy, and similar roles. *  (some interviewers perhaps not so different to me - I pre-date the new fangled GCSEs and still get easily confused by youngsters described as being in "year 11" at school, despite having two of my own in the system) 

I suggest that only once there is a real demand among the folk who actually want to see and maybe to verify, qualifications, rather than just those who want to get folk on courses to provide them, or those taking same, who want to wave them about to show they finished the course, change will follow. Assuming it does, it will probably come quite smartly - we only have to look at the take up of the idea of electronic signatures  on contracts, on-line bank transfers and so on, all quite unthinkable, until it has been done, then it quickly takes over as a dominant method.

And there can be no doubt in terms of recruitments  that taking someone on who is not really suitable is frankly a  dead loss all-round.  Personally I tend however to be looking over the desk at  folk with degree or postgrad levels though, so my expectation may be coloured a bit by that.

Good  luck with it though .

Mike.

(who btw is not in the IET at all, but does have a degree in physics and a PhD in electrical and electronic engineering and a sprinkling of other bits of paper - however pretty much all dating from the previous century unless you count the first aid certs and the off-road  one that allows me to drive the works landrovers onto test ranges ;-)  

In many ways my Scout leader paperwork is far more up to date than the work stuff. )

Hi Mike, your funny! clearly as you say part of the old school; as well as articulate!

mapj1 said:

Assuming it does, it will probably come quite smartly - we only have to look at the take up of the idea of electronic signatures  on contracts, on-line bank transfers and so on, all quite unthinkable, until it has been done, then it quickly takes over as a dominant method.

I think this is exactly how it will go, again not for everyone, my point about choice and adoption will always prevail but over time it will probably become the de-facto way, like the examples you state in other areas where digitalization has taken hold.

To be honest and I'm not sure if your aware of these as it was probably after your time, but I have a National Record of Achievement and love all my "tickets" being in there, but I also want a secure online presence on say LinkedIn like so many others.

But for sure, even in the age of COVID when someone is taken on after a Teams / Zoom interview there must always be probation to ensure the "blaggers" are sifted out no matter how their qualifications are obtained together with their self certified experience...

mapj1 said:

Personally I tend however to be looking over the desk at  folk with degree or postgrad levels though, so my expectation may be coloured a bit by that

I think this will eventually become part of the HE graduation process together with the gown and mortar...  and even more so if PEI's finally pick this up!

Hi Mike, your funny! clearly as you say part of the old school; as well as articulate!

mapj1 said:

Assuming it does, it will probably come quite smartly - we only have to look at the take up of the idea of electronic signatures  on contracts, on-line bank transfers and so on, all quite unthinkable, until it has been done, then it quickly takes over as a dominant method.

I think this is exactly how it will go, again not for everyone, my point about choice and adoption will always prevail but over time it will probably become the de-facto way, like the examples you state in other areas where digitalization has taken hold.

To be honest and I'm not sure if your aware of these as it was probably after your time, but I have a National Record of Achievement and love all my "tickets" being in there, but I also want a secure online presence on say LinkedIn like so many others.

But for sure, even in the age of COVID when someone is taken on after a Teams / Zoom interview there must always be probation to ensure the "blaggers" are sifted out no matter how their qualifications are obtained together with their self certified experience...

mapj1 said:

Personally I tend however to be looking over the desk at  folk with degree or postgrad levels though, so my expectation may be coloured a bit by that

I think this will eventually become part of the HE graduation process together with the gown and mortar...  and even more so if PEI's finally pick this up!