Wind versus Coal

An interesting little side piece in E+T.  It will require 233  5 MW wind turbines to replace one 500 MW coal fired power station. This will occupy 55 square mile. This is also assuming quite a high capacity factor of nearly 43% but I will keep to the quoted numbers.

 

I am not sure if it is viable /sensible to build new coal fired power stations. The Chinese and the Indians certainly think that it is. So to look at the nuclear option:

To replace a 3 MW nuclear power plant with 2 EPR units, Hinkley point C or Sizewell C, will require 330 square miles to be filled with wind turbines (maybe more depending on the wake effect).

www.wind-energy-the-facts.org/wake-effect.html

This is more than twice the area of the Isle of Wight, not impossible but politically very difficult.

The more important question is the resources required. It is difficult to find numbers for the concrete and steel requirements for wind turbines. I do understand that this is affected by the ground conditions and foundation requirements however some number exist in this 2011 document.

pubs.usgs.gov/.../sir2011-5036.pdf

Table 5, page 12,  gives 100 tonnes of steel per MW and 400 tonnes of concrete per MW.  So to replace Hinkley Point C will, according to Kurt Cobb, require 6990 MW of wind turbines.

Steel 6990 * 100 tonnes  = 699 000 tonnes

Concrete 6990 * 400 tonnes = 2 796 000 tonnes.

The quoted figures for Hinkley Point C are:

Steel 280 000 tonnes

Concrete 3 000 000 tonnes.

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/innovative-thinking/projects-innovation-drives-hinkley-point-c-16-01-2019/

https://chamberuk.com/chrisfayers/

So similar amounts of concrete and a lot less steel for Hinkley Point C. The NPP has an expected life span of 80 years, wind seems to be typically 20-25 years.

Hinkley Point C could also use a lot less materials, cost less and be on time if it was built somewhere other than the UK:

www.spectator.co.uk/.../

Is wind power a sensible use of our finite resources?

Parents
  • The land under a wind farm doesn't have to be concreted over.  Each turbine needs a concrete pad.  The rest can be grassed over and used to graze sheep or grow crops.

  • Yes, windmills are much cheaper to construct and maintain on land rather than those out at sea. But we need 25GW of nuclear as base load generation which GB energy should prioritise by reducing the radiation safety requirements to justifiable limits 

    But we may be able to use our grid power lines to capture the wind; as that wind is trying to blow the pylons over. If we could somehow capture the sideways thrust energy by using compressed air legging's on all future grid lines what an achievement that would be for GB energy to fund some research into this.

    Use the 8b£ for something useful and save the precious oil and gas for transport use where it is totally necessary, because we know that Electric planes are probably a pipe dream  and even large lorries are economical on hydrocarbon fuel but ships could most certainly save fuel by using sails wherever possible another area where GB energy could invest; even if it does delay ETAs of those ships..    

  • All of which begs the question that wind is unreliable, and, for instance tide, is predictable.

  • Indeed however the concrete bases are quite large and disruptive so it is likely that the yields will be reduced and the effect of the infrasound on livestock is also not yet clear.

  • Tides may be predictable, but they are also highly variable.

  • By highly variable I assume you mean the actual maximum sea level, which depends on the full moon (which is predictable) and winds (direction and strength) which now can be calculated ahead of time by new weather programs.

    Peter Brooks 

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • Tides vary with springs and neeps.

    How you generate enough tidal energy to power an industrial civilisation is for the birds.

    As for weather being predictable is ridiculous beyond 24 hours. 

    The only prediction is the rich turbine owners will be getting richer off the back of the highest energy costs in the world in the uk

  • Hello Jon:

    Now you have mentioned the other parameter TIME but you failed to mention prediction accuracy! As time is increased the predication accuracy decreases.

    Peter Brooks

  • Tidal power generation is very variable swinging from zero to full output twice a day (approximately). To be classed as despatchable a significant back up or storage system is required.

    I would prefer my life support system to be nuclear or fossil fuel powered rather than from renewables.

Reply
  • Tidal power generation is very variable swinging from zero to full output twice a day (approximately). To be classed as despatchable a significant back up or storage system is required.

    I would prefer my life support system to be nuclear or fossil fuel powered rather than from renewables.

Children
  • Well with reversable generators (generate on both ebb and flow) it is 4 times a day and at different times around the coast, and the slack tide periods are relatively short.

    But I agree, nuclear is best for standby.

  • Hello Roger:

    Now you have added another topic to this thread by your reference to "my life support system".

    From a personal perspective using electrical "mains" power for a persons "life support system" is not acceptable.

    During storms and disasters the "mains' electrical power can disappear for hours, days and weeks.

    If I had a LVAD (heart pump) installed in my body I would have to put in a external backup electrical generator that uses LP gas or regular gasoline. 

    Peter Brooks,

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • To go slightly aside again on this topic. Could tidal generation be run synchronously? Normal hydroelectric power can but could a direct synchronous generator operate with what is a continuously varying (sinusoidal) flow regime and offer grid stability?

    Inverter coupled systems like wind and solar do nothing to help the grid stability and battery storage systems even with ‘advanced grid forming’ inverters don’t seem to be enough.

    This article notes the blackout problems at Australia’s Broken Hill when the powerline coupling to the Australian grid was broken in a storm. Even though there was apparently ample wind, solar and battery power available the micro grid would not run without connection to a real grid.

    https://judithcurry.com/2024/12/05/wind-and-solar-cant-support-the-grid/

     

    This may have been a technology or management problem, there is another view here:

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/energy-regulator-joins-probe-into-reasons-for-lengthy-blackouts-in-storm-hit-broken-hill/

    Or maybe it was the wrong sort of battery:

    https://www.agl.com.au/about-agl/operations/broken-hill-battery-energy-storage-system?zcf97o=vlx3ap

  • Roger:-

    Regarding power systems in Australia- I don't know very much except 1) Tesla Storage Battery systems have been installed in Western Australia and 2) There are big plans to connect a Northern Australia's solar farm(s) to Singapore, using underseas cables made in a new cable manufacturing facility in Tasmania.

    As a result of climate change many older Hydro systems are running out of water here in the US,

    Peter Brooks

    Palm Bay Florida 

  • Interesting read - while it looks like there were a few technical challenges that really should have been sorted better, it reads as if management/maintenance failings alone were quite enough to cause the disaster:

    one of the diesel generators that were supposed to provide back-up power was out of action, and the other was incapable of meeting community and business demand.

    the Broken Hill battery had been deliberately disabled from providing this “islanding” service, under orders from transmission company Transgrid which had chosen instead to deliver those services through a new advanced compressed air storage project.  ... But that facility has not even begun construction, and won’t be built until 2027.

    with a nice summary from the author:

    But, like many of the challenges facing the green energy transition, this is not really about the technology, but whether the regulatory processes, the rules and grid management protocols are fit for purpose.

      - Andy.

  • More likely population explosion than climate change has emptied your reservoirs.

  • More like lack of snow over the last few years. This years US winter is projected to be colder with more snow in the western mountains. 

  • Not really much of an explosion in the US - population now about 320 million, vs 300 million in 2004. A ten percent increase in population over 15 years , mostly created by better life expectancy rather than high birth rate or migration,  and that is now very clearly levelling off if not reversing, does not have as much effect as the fact the last 4  years have been unusually dry !!

    More interesting is that the slower trend underlying the spikes is actually for more water, but some of that arrives all at once and in the wrong places.

    It is useful to look at the stats before leaping to conclusions.
    Mike.

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-m7FqV-uJg

    Roger

    Looks like the UK will be getting a bad storm next week --

    Peter 

  • Indeed, we already have official weather warnings issued  " UK will be affected by weather" slightly better than that sort of level of useful.


    Well I'm paraphrasing. "It will be windy on the coast..." may be fairer
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2dxlwz219ko
    Mike.