This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Today's job inspect and test a domestic installation in a sheltered housing flat. TN-C-S earthing system. Main protective bonding correct. 


Wet room for disabled occupant. Electric shower and extract fan supplied from a Wylex 2 way consumer unit  with BS EN 61008 30mA RCD main switch. Recently installed.


RCD does not trip on X1 RCD test but does trip on X 5 and operation of test button. RCD does not tip on a second and third test after X 5 test and operation of the test button.


Thinking about the Note to Regulation 643.8 are you content with this installation as there are no other observations recorded and prepared to issue a "Satisfactory" EICR?


Parents
  • OK here is my decision making process.


    The room contains a shower so the BS 7671 Part 1-6 General rules apply and is a special location so 701 applies in addition.


    All circuits in the bathroom require 30mA RCD protection to comply with 701.415.2. That RCD is there for Additional Protection.


    I was carrying out a Periodic Inspection and Test in compliance with Chapter 65. Chapter 65 does not prescribe any tests but says my inspection should be "supplemented by appropriate tests and measurements from Chapter 64". Interestingly 651.2 (vi) only requires me identify defects and non-complaisance's with BS 7671 "that may give rise to danger" so I don't have to record C3s but I do.


    I go back in to Chapter 64 and look at regulation 643.8. This regulation required me to test RCDs for Additional Protection with an instrument complying with BS EN 61557-6. I use an instrument that complies with this standard which is calibrated annually and goes on my test box once a month. There is Note to 643.8. As you already know Notes to Regulations are not regulations in themselves but only supply guidance. This note says that the effectiveness of the RCD is deemed to have been verified if I test the RCD at x5 (150mA) or higher. So what is higher then, how a bout a couple of Amps that should get the sticky-est RCD to operate but what if it did not operate at 50mA? I my humble opinion this Regulation needs a serious re-write.


    Then I look at Regulations in 643.7.1. This section relates to fault protection on TN and TT systems. My RCD is not provided for Fault Protection only Additional Protection. In this set of Regulations again an instrument complying with BS EN 61557-6 must be used to test RCDs. However the Notes to this Regulation refer me back to Table 3A in Appendix 3.  Now other than for Appendix 1 which is Normative all the other Appendices are Informative so are only there for guidance. Table 3A sets out the product standards for BS EN 61008 RCDs and BS EN 61009 RCBOs. My RCD does not trip in the set time (300ms) with a test current of 30mA and in fact does not trip at all. So I conclude the RCD is defective.


    So to avoid the above being the first 5 lines of a fatal accident report and have been a frequent visitor to the witness box in the magistrates, Crown and County Courts over the last 30 years I have experienced lawyers trying to humiliate me in cross examination.


    I then apply the "my mum" test. I know the RCD is defective. I know the occupant is a frail old, disabled lady. Would I be happy for my mum to stand in a shower in a pool of water able to touch the shower that has live parts inside a thin plastic box and the live parts connected to a 40A MCB. Answer no. So if it is not safe for my mum then it is not safe full stop.


     So my action was to switch off the RCD and the MCB supplying the shower. Advised the old lady not to use the shower and pointed out I have switched it off. Advised the warden who was off site at the time of what I had done. Called the maintenance electrician for the site and asked him to replace the RCD ASAP. Told him it was a Wylex 63A 30mA and he said he had one on the van and would replace the defective one that evening. I asked him to send me the defective RCD for my black museum and for some bench testing in my workshop.


    I am fully signed up to the old saying that, " a clear conscience is a comfy pillow". 

Reply
  • OK here is my decision making process.


    The room contains a shower so the BS 7671 Part 1-6 General rules apply and is a special location so 701 applies in addition.


    All circuits in the bathroom require 30mA RCD protection to comply with 701.415.2. That RCD is there for Additional Protection.


    I was carrying out a Periodic Inspection and Test in compliance with Chapter 65. Chapter 65 does not prescribe any tests but says my inspection should be "supplemented by appropriate tests and measurements from Chapter 64". Interestingly 651.2 (vi) only requires me identify defects and non-complaisance's with BS 7671 "that may give rise to danger" so I don't have to record C3s but I do.


    I go back in to Chapter 64 and look at regulation 643.8. This regulation required me to test RCDs for Additional Protection with an instrument complying with BS EN 61557-6. I use an instrument that complies with this standard which is calibrated annually and goes on my test box once a month. There is Note to 643.8. As you already know Notes to Regulations are not regulations in themselves but only supply guidance. This note says that the effectiveness of the RCD is deemed to have been verified if I test the RCD at x5 (150mA) or higher. So what is higher then, how a bout a couple of Amps that should get the sticky-est RCD to operate but what if it did not operate at 50mA? I my humble opinion this Regulation needs a serious re-write.


    Then I look at Regulations in 643.7.1. This section relates to fault protection on TN and TT systems. My RCD is not provided for Fault Protection only Additional Protection. In this set of Regulations again an instrument complying with BS EN 61557-6 must be used to test RCDs. However the Notes to this Regulation refer me back to Table 3A in Appendix 3.  Now other than for Appendix 1 which is Normative all the other Appendices are Informative so are only there for guidance. Table 3A sets out the product standards for BS EN 61008 RCDs and BS EN 61009 RCBOs. My RCD does not trip in the set time (300ms) with a test current of 30mA and in fact does not trip at all. So I conclude the RCD is defective.


    So to avoid the above being the first 5 lines of a fatal accident report and have been a frequent visitor to the witness box in the magistrates, Crown and County Courts over the last 30 years I have experienced lawyers trying to humiliate me in cross examination.


    I then apply the "my mum" test. I know the RCD is defective. I know the occupant is a frail old, disabled lady. Would I be happy for my mum to stand in a shower in a pool of water able to touch the shower that has live parts inside a thin plastic box and the live parts connected to a 40A MCB. Answer no. So if it is not safe for my mum then it is not safe full stop.


     So my action was to switch off the RCD and the MCB supplying the shower. Advised the old lady not to use the shower and pointed out I have switched it off. Advised the warden who was off site at the time of what I had done. Called the maintenance electrician for the site and asked him to replace the RCD ASAP. Told him it was a Wylex 63A 30mA and he said he had one on the van and would replace the defective one that evening. I asked him to send me the defective RCD for my black museum and for some bench testing in my workshop.


    I am fully signed up to the old saying that, " a clear conscience is a comfy pillow". 

Children
No Data