Rules and Guidelines
Want to participate in the discussions? Please read our Community Rules and Guidelines. Need some help? Visit Support and Answers.

  • State Not Answered
  • Locked Locked
  • Replies 27 replies
  • Subscribers 32 subscribers
  • Views 3839 views
  • Users 0 members are here
Options
You may also be interested in
This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

Smart meter diatribe

Legh Richardson
What does the panel think about this?

Smart meter scam?


I'm interested in a professional qualified view as this character is pretty ruthless regarding the energy suppliers


Legh
  • 0

    I dare say that the software could do anything that EDF wanted. However, the RCD still needs to be there for basic protection; and if the smart meters were to be used for overload "protection" (of EDF's finances!) then either they would have to switch back on after an interval, or else they would have to have a reset button.



    I agree the 500mA RCD would still haver to be there (for fault rather than basic protection) - but if the smart meter does the demand limiting then a simple conventional (i.e. cheaper) off the shelf unit could be used instead. As for reset, I'm not sure of EdF's policy. I understand that in Spain the similar arrangement requires a call-out to the supplier to snip seals to reset the MCB (presumably along with the payment of a fee) - deliberately to discourage abuse. EdF might do similar - in which case a phone call to the supplier (& possible penalty payment) and then the supplier could command re-connection remotely (or similar via a web page or smart phone app) - or if customers are free to reset, then presumably the existing buttons on the smart meter for navigating the various menus and registers could be used (a double press or long press at an appropriate stage perhaps) or even via a button on a suitable in home display.


    Smart meter implementation of load limiting would possibly be much more flexible too - e.g. allowing a higher limit during say overnight off-peak times and a lower limit during peak times.


      - Andy.
  • 0

    Andrew Jewsbury:

    In that context I can see that smart meters would be very useful - and as most designs already incorporate a software controlled contactor and naturally they measure (even if the don't record) instantaneous current demand, it would be easy to incorporate the 'overload disconnection' functionality into the meter and so safe the cost of an additional circuit breaker in future installations.




    I dare say that the software could do anything that EDF wanted. However, the RCD still needs to be there for basic protection; and if the smart meters were to be used for overload "protection" (of EDF's finances!) then either they would have to switch back on after an interval, or else they would have to have a reset button.

  • 0
    The French have a quite different approach to generation from us. The vast majority of their power is from nuclear - so isn't very switch-on-and-off-able. It's interesting to compare the French grid: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/ with the UK one: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/. Despite having a much higher demand the difference between the peaks and troughs is much smaller than the UK's (so better suited to nuclear). Seemingly this is achieved by managing customer demand - small supplies (e.g. 45A rather than the 80A or 100A we're used to in the UK) force customers to avoid large peaks - e.g. discouraging instantaneous electric showers and encouraging stored-hot-water solutions instead - seemingly sometimes backed up by automatic load shedding (even in domestics). They also seem to have a relatively complicated/sophisticated tariff system with different charges on different days (blue days & white days I think) as well a by time of day, to further balance out demand. In that context I can see that smart meters would be very useful - and as most designs already incorporate a software controlled contactor and naturally they measure (even if the don't record) instantaneous current demand, it would be easy to incorporate the 'overload disconnection' functionality into the meter and so safe the cost of an additional circuit breaker in future installations.


        - Andy.
  • 0

    Andrew Jewsbury:




    Quelle arnaque !



    Apart from seemingly not really understanding VA and power factor, I think what he's really trying to say is that the smart meter is enforcing the limit at something like 39.1A (which more closely matches the agreed limit) rather than the 45A the old circuit breaker supposedly tripped at - i.e. he's lost a bit of unofficial leeway.


    Well now, I don't think that he knows what he is talking about.


    The devices in question (disjoncteurs de branchement = connexion circuit breakers) are RCBOs. The RCD bit is usually 500 mA type S, which provides basic protection on what is normally a TT system. I have been unable to find any trip curves for the MCB part, but presumably they do not trip the moment that the setting (which could be anywhere from 15 - 60 A) is reached. Surely, they must allow for a degree of diversity.


    As for where have my kW/kVA gone? The 15 / 30 / 45 / 60 A settings are equivalent to 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 kVA nominal, so nothing has changed there.


    Whether the smart meters have an overcurrent interruption capability seems very questionable. It also appears that they do not transmit instantaneous consumption data.


    So what we have is another diatribe which has no basis in fact.

  • 0

    About two years later I switched supplier again and curiously enough the new supplier was the same one that was supplying us when the SMETS 1 was installed.  Surprise, surprise, they either can't read it remotely or are unaware that its a smart meter as they regularly encourage me at meter-reading time to fit a smart meter!

     



    Well, that's a good opportunity to have the latest version SMETS 2 meter fitted. if you're that way inclined. I'm not against new technology per se just sometimes confused with the controversy that it generates.... and the fact that some people get very hot under the collar about all the possible problems it may generate.

    Lots of interesting points of view ....
  • 0

    Roy Bowdler:
    A quick bit of googling led me here https://www.frenchentree.com/living-in-france/utilities/french-electrical-systems/  which  provides some context such as standing charges being set by maximum demand with options for 30,45,60 & 90A. I’m inferring that the supply cable will in many cases be capable of 90A, but that the main breaker can be set to a lower value?  Some member will I’m sure have in depth experience of all this, which I lack.




    For anybody who is interested, information on French systems.

  • 0
    Hello Legh.


    I think the smart meter roll-out basically makes sense but is over shadowed by a comedy show from our pathetic politicians, none of whom know the difference between a Watt and a reel of cable.  I believe the UK smart meters use mains-borne communications and we don't have a microwave radiation issue.  A meter is just a meter and not a magical energy reduction unit which our nitwit politicians have failed to understand.


    My own experience of this goes back about 7 years when our existing analogue meter came to the end of its service life.  At that time I was routinely emailed quarterly by our electricity supplier for a check meter reading, which I sent back accordingly and paid for our electricity on a budget scheme with no bothers. We were offered a SMETS 1 as a replacement option, which I agreed to and this was duly correctly installed.  The readings were then automated and I no longer had to read the meter.  About two years later I switched electricity supplier and the SMETS 1 went "dumb".  The emailed meter readings started again, this time monthly instead of quarterly, but not a problem for me.  About two years later I switched supplier again and curiously enough the new supplier was the same one that was supplying us when the SMETS 1 was installed.  Surprise, surprise, they either can't read it remotely or are unaware that its a smart meter as they regularly encourage me at meter-reading time to fit a smart meter!


    I haven't any hang ups about these - it's just a meter and I have no plans to mess about with putting a SMETS 2 in just to placate our dim-witted politicians.


    Regards,


                        Colin Jenkins.
  • 0
    Let’s generously assume that guy explaining the French system understands the operating characteristics of circuit breakers , the difference between a breaker and a meter, reactive power etc and that perhaps a little is lost in translation? A quick bit of googling led me here https://www.frenchentree.com/living-in-france/utilities/french-electrical-systems/  which  provides some context such as standing charges being set by maximum demand with options for 30,45,60 & 90A. I’m inferring that the supply cable will in many cases be capable of 90A, but that the main breaker can be set to a lower value?  Some member will I’m sure have in depth experience of all this, which I lack.


    Turning to electromagnetic radiation, this seems to be a complete red herring to me. Much higher levels of electromagnetic radiation have been studied and managed safely for a couple of generations. We don’t constantly hold meters to our ears either.  I spent a period earlier in my career working in high voltage open substations (up to 400KV) including membership of the Health & Safety Committee. There were concerns and research about whether long-term exposure to significant levels of electromagnetic radiation had negative health effects. Such effects could take decades to become apparent , such as asbestos related illness, which was only belatedly understood.  I’m no longer close to this subject, but it is a legitimate avenue for a technical discussion, perhaps someone else has expertise and familiarity with more recent research?          


    In response to Andy’s sensible answer, I agree that the potential is there and I might even ask for one to be fitted in future, but right now there wasn’t an obvious benefit.  Regulatory action seems to forced consumers to become “early adopters” which as anyone who has ever purchases a consumer electronics product will testify, is often a costly approach.  Perhaps we should have waited for the technology to mature? Is it mature now?  Can they be “hacked” to create a disconnection? The last pre-payment meter that I was familiar with took two-bobs!  A Smart Meter going “dumb” negates any benefits, but isn’t a particular hazard is it? Twenty years ago we had the dotcom bubble, when the hype of technology got the better of the reality, but on-line shopping eventually began to displace bricks and mortar, so we are in a different place now.  We are in no state now to move en masse to electric vehicles, but we may be in future.  


    I still have a functioning VHS machine, an “ultra-modern” (15 years ago) expensive DVD-RAM and Hard Disk machine, an 8mm Camcorder, 35mm & 60mm camera equipment, a USB Floppy Disk reader, a vinyl record player and an audio cassette player.  The electromechanical electricity meter has seen many of these come and go. Much of our electricity transmission infrastructure is over 60 years old and will still function effectively in another 60 , with only selective targeted investment needed.  De-carbonisation has removed much low-cost electricity generation which is a political decision with enormous costs, based mainly on climate change models. Demand management at the consumer end via smart meters is another part of this.  The issue creates some strong opinions, which only the course of history can definitively validate. My career began in a “cathedral of power” packed full of the latest technology and the teething troubles that this creates, now it and its brethren are empty shells, called dirty, outdated and scheduled for demolition.

    At a strategic level it always difficult to decide when to adopt the latest technology and when to wait, because you are potentially damned if you do and damned if you don’t. Plus ca change?                             

  • 0

    Andrew Jewsbury:




    Did I make the wrong call to decline the smart meter?  



    I don't know. How would you feel if your supplier introduces a 'free electricity on Saturday or Sunday' tariff, or the next washing machine you buy comes with an option to delay start until the cost per kWh drops below a certain level or your new electric car has an option to sell a few kWh back to the grid at very attractive prices at certain times. Will you feel like you're missing out?


      - Andy.

     




    Well, that's a lovely utopian theory. where we become mini industialists partaking in the grand scheme of selling and being sold the dream. That will be very generous of the electrical suppliers to give their hard earned electrical researched enegy away while our brains are frying through the microwaves bouncing off the metalwork.

    I wonder if anybody has done any research into combinations of multitudes of different electromagnetic waves criss crossing through the human body simultaneously?


    Legh

  • 0

    Did I make the wrong call to decline the smart meter?  



    I don't know. How would you feel if your supplier introduces a 'free electricity on Saturday or Sunday' tariff, or the next washing machine you buy comes with an option to delay start until the cost per kWh drops below a certain level or your new electric car has an option to sell a few kWh back to the grid at very attractive prices at certain times. Will you feel like you're missing out?


      - Andy.

Community Rules & Guidelines