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Vermin control in a new electrical Installation-Old large house

Billy Boy
Hi 

I would like to know if anyone has had the experience to install an electrical installation designed for Vermin control, ie rats, mice, Glis Glis,  etc

We are looking to take on a large house refurb in the country and part of the design spec is to carry out an installation that will protect against Vermin.

So would we be looking at a twin and earth system, or a complete screwed conduit system?

to be clear it is an old house with large old joists so a conduit system would be very hard and expensive.

Is there a risk assessment for such installations? and is there a wiring spec or IET guidance?


Thanks in advance


Billy


  • 0
    I'm somewhat surprised at the apparent consensus that MICC is considered better protection against vermin than SWA. I'd have thought the opposite, given that with mineral insulated, copper sheathing is more malleable and chewable than the steel strands in armoured cable.


    F
  • 0

    Alcomax:




    Sparkingchip:


    If the client wants a satisfactory EICR rather than an unsatisfactory EICR with several minor works certificates appended to it why argue?

     




    Wow!  Think I need to have a lie down after that bombshell.


     




    Still do the minor works certificates, but of they want to pay for an updated EICR so be it. 


    I installed a new shower circuit last week from an existing consumer unit , yesterday I did the invoice and certification as one document to email to the regular customer, the document if printed covers eleven sides of A4 paper with an itemised invoice,  a copy of the part P notification and the electrical installation certificate. 


    My notes in my diary for all of this consists of several lines on a page. The customer expects the document to cover eleven pages and that's part of what they pay for. I know it's silly and so do they, but they have all the details my input to the job stored stored as a pdf. on their server as part of their paperless system .


    If the customer wants the last document stored on paper in a file or paperless on a server to be a satisfactory condition report and they are paying for it why argue?

  • 0

    Chris Pearson:




    Sparkingchip:

    If the old house is being totally renovated then there should not be a vermin problem upon completion of the work, if it’s a partial renovation then cables need to be routed and installed appropriately to avoid vermin damage.




    There won't a vermin problem in the sense that the electrical installation will be brand new, but how do you keep them out in future?


     




    In the same way you improve the thermal efficiency of the house, fill the holes in behind the consumer unit etc. It will also reduce the risk of fire spreading within the property .

  • 0

    Sparkingchip:




    Alcomax:




    Sparkingchip:


    If the client wants a satisfactory EICR rather than an unsatisfactory EICR with several minor works certificates appended to it why argue?

     




    Wow!  Think I need to have a lie down after that bombshell.


     




    Still do the minor works certificates, but of they want to pay for an updated EICR so be it. 


    I installed a new shower circuit last week from an existing consumer unit , yesterday I did the invoice and certification as one document to email to the regular customer, the document if printed covers eleven sides of A4 paper with an itemised invoice,  a copy of the part P notification and the electrical installation certificate. 


    My notes in my diary for all of this consists of several lines on a page. The customer expects the document to cover eleven pages and that's part of what they pay for. I know it's silly and so do they, but they have all the details my input to the job stored stored as a pdf. on their server as part of their paperless system .


    If the customer wants the last document stored on paper in a file or paperless on a server to be a satisfactory condition report and they are paying for it why argue?


     





    Still do the minor works certificates, but of they want to pay for an updated EICR so be it. 

     


    What is this "updated EICR"? Are you performing the in-service inspection all over again, to the same extent and limits? Taking the same samples from the same places? Are you then issuing another Report [EICR] ? Does or will the original "un-satisfactory" Report still exist somewhere?
  • 0
    Regards the original topic.


    If you are going to install steel conduit you are going to have to take up all the timber floors to notch the joists, you cannot pull steel conduit in without doing so, rather than doing that the client may as well pay someone to tske up the floor boards around the perimeter of the building and point around the joist ends as well as filling any open brickwork joists to prevent vermin accessing the floor voids as well as stopping draught and fire stopping. The clients money will be better spent on pointing than conduit.


    Having said that there aren't many properties that are totally vermin proof, the little sods have been in my own roof at different times and chewed some Christmas decorations amongst other thing, but I don't get paranoid about it, which is a good job as a bit back I left the patio doors open and a mouse ran past me as I set on the settee them a few days later a squirrel did exactly the same thing. 


    Regards repetitive EICRs it up to the client and inspector to agree the amount of dismantling and you shouldn't be stripping an installation down everytime as you will end up making problems that were not there in the first place. Engineering judgement is required.
  • 0

    Sparkingchip:




    Regards repetitive EICRs it up to the client and inspector to agree the amount of dismantling and you shouldn't be stripping an installation down everytime as you will end up making problems that were not there in the first place. Engineering judgement is required. 




    You have to ask why the need for repetitive EICR ? Is that based on sound engineering judgement or on financial reward? One Report should be enough if it is good enough.


    Your process seems to be



    Still do the minor works certificates, but of they want to pay for an updated EICR so be it.

     


    But the following query


    What is this "updated EICR"? Are you performing the in-service inspection all over again, to the same extent and limits? Taking the same samples from the same places? Are you then issuing another Report [EICR] ? Does or will the original "un-satisfactory" Report still exist somewhere?

     



    has not be dealt with in any of your answers. Obviously there is absolutely no need to issue an "updated report" , however another one is being magically produced for a fee. How robust is this procedure for the protection of your liability?


  • 0

    Sparkingchip:




    Chris Pearson:




    Sparkingchip:

    If the old house is being totally renovated then there should not be a vermin problem upon completion of the work, if it’s a partial renovation then cables need to be routed and installed appropriately to avoid vermin damage.




    There won't a vermin problem in the sense that the electrical installation will be brand new, but how do you keep them out in future?



    In the same way you improve the thermal efficiency of the house, fill the holes in behind the consumer unit etc. It will also reduce the risk of fire spreading within the property .




    Sparkingchip:

    Regards the original topic.


    If you are going to install steel conduit you are going to have to take up all the timber floors to notch the joists, you cannot pull steel conduit in without doing so, rather than doing that the client may as well pay someone to tske up the floor boards around the perimeter of the building and point around the joist ends as well as filling any open brickwork joists to prevent vermin accessing the floor voids as well as stopping draught and fire stopping. The clients money will be better spent on pointing than conduit.


    Having said that there aren't many properties that are totally vermin proof, the little sods have been in my own roof at different times and chewed some Christmas decorations amongst other thing, but I don't get paranoid about it, which is a good job as a bit back I left the patio doors open and a mouse ran past me as I set on the settee them a few days later a squirrel did exactly the same thing. 


    As I suggested above. Multiple notches won't work and even with 8" joists, you would struggle to put in 25 mm conduit.


    And is there a change of mind about rat-proofing? I just don't believe that it is possible in an old large house. Some years ago, I was painting my soffits and I even had to replace an eroded brick where squirrels had been entering. As a matter of course I replaced some guttering. When I went up aloft in the cherry-picker the following day, the critters had chewed out a great big chunk in their attempt to get in again.


    Don't even mention foxes and above all, badgers! ? ? 


    Note to Lisa - why no badger 'emoji'?
  • 0
    What fo you consider should be the minimum period between EICRs?


    If the tenancy of a let property changes several times in a year should there be a full EICR prepared at each and every change of tenancy?


    Andy
  • 0
    Has anyone had experience of using frequency emitting devices designed specifically for discouraging mice and rats? 


    Mike.
  • 0

    Has anyone had experience of using frequency emitting devices designed specifically for discouraging mice and rats?



    The ultrasonic plug-in type things?


    I put a couple in my cellar after spotting some slight mouse damage - they seemed to do the trick (although absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence of course).


      - Andy.

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