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EV CHARGING EQUIPMENT

John Peckham
I am hearing from my network of contractors, that have actually read the new 722, that they have been asking charging equipment manufactures for documentary proof to comply with Note 5 of 722.411.4.


They are getting knocked back for asking or in one case a Declaration that says the particular device complies with BS 7671. I think that is wrong to declare that as BS 7671 is an installation safety standard and not a product standard. I believe that as a minimum the equipment must comply with the Low Voltage Directive and be CE marked. I also believe that manufacturers have to issue a Declaration of Conformity. 


BS 7671 722 has numerous references to the various standards required such as BS EN 61851 that the equipment must comply with. I am thinking it may be illegal to offer the sale of equipment that does not comply with the Low Voltage Directive and is not CE marked?


I am hoping the countries top man of equipment safety standards, Paul Skyrme , sees this post and will come on and give us his expert view?


Has any forum member asked for a Declaration of Conformity from EV charging equipment manufacturers and received one?
  • 0

    gkenyon:




    ebee:

    Well we could all use isolating transformer and configure the ouput as our own TNS just for the charger




    Unless I've missed something, I don't think this is any improvement on using TT earthing system just for the charger ... except more expensive?

     



    A transformer would have the advantage of confining any d.c. residual currents to the EVSE system - potentially saving on a lot of expensive B-type RCDs upstream (but we're straying into another thread there),


       - Andy.

  • 0

    AJJewsbury:




    gkenyon:




    ebee:

    Well we could all use isolating transformer and configure the ouput as our own TNS just for the charger




    Unless I've missed something, I don't think this is any improvement on using TT earthing system just for the charger ... except more expensive?

     



    A transformer would have the advantage of confining any d.c. residual currents to the EVSE system - potentially saving on a lot of expensive B-type RCDs upstream (but we're straying into another thread there),


       - Andy.


     




    The Type B (or Type A or F plus RDC-DD) would still be required for the EVSE.


    I don't think there's a requirement (or need) for upstream devices to be anything more onerous than Type A, as the downstream device detects the DC residual current fault. A few manufacturers have been supplying Type A rather than Type AC for a few years now.

  • 0
    I was not disputing the present situation Paul, I was suggesting that we could change if we wanted. As we are under no obligation to implement EU directives in future, that should be open to consideration. Considering some of the proposed ideas we have had put forward (the <1kW kettle and the extra low power toaster) a considerable degree of caution is required as to the usefulness of existing standards in the EU, and remember as US trade will probably increase those standards we do use may move more towards the US ones. We are not tied to Europe in any realistic way soon, and need to make the most of this.


    I see no reason at all Graham why a BS1363 plug on an appliance should cost between £2 and £10 extra over a euro one. It is a slight difference but then so is making a product for other international markets as well as Europe. To any reasonably flexible manufacturer the cost should be essentially zero. We are not making one offs here, imagine cars where slight differences exist between every one off the line (trim, colour, engine size, entertainment etc), how to they manage? £10 to a car manufacturer is a fortune to loose to keep a particular market.
  • 0
    Picking up on Richards' comments above,  OLEV approved installers installing an EV charger with the grant payment cannot specify from the whole of the market. They are tied to a manufacturers apron strings, so it may be that they will generally specify the products they have been approved by manufacturers rather than what would really be the best option for the customer and the particular installation.

    Add onto that that many are trying to quote without actually visiting the customers premises to do a survey. 

    So they are trying to guess what issues there may be with the existing installation, then shoe horning components from different manufacturers together to come up with a safe installation that is BS 7671 compliant that is supposed to have the declaration of conformity for every component and an installation certificate to say the designer and installer have ensured it all complies with BS 7671.

    Having watched a few of the YouTube vloggers some of them don't even seem to be able to identify the earthing arrangement of the existing installation. 


    Andy B
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    The charge point install I was referring to went fine from a customer perspective, but was perhaps a bit suspect from a standards and compliance one. The chap put it where he was asked to and swept up afterwards but he got into a bit of a muddle on diversity calculations, pulled the main fuse without PPE or resealing, and I got the general feeling he was following a script without much understanding. Certainly it was the kind of arrangement where he scribbled down some test results and then the certificates arrive 3 months later signed by someone who'd never been within 50 miles of the installation.
  • 0
    If you have become an installer and have gained approval to fit specific chargers, how much choice are you going to give potential customers?


    Andy B.
  • 0

    Sparkingchip:

    If you have become an installer and have gained approval to fit specific chargers, how much choice are you going to give potential customers?




    So when you go out to buy your EV, how much choice do you get in the M-B dealer, or the BMW one, or the VW one, or ...

  • 0

    Chris Pearson:




    Sparkingchip:

    If you have become an installer and have gained approval to fit specific chargers, how much choice are you going to give potential customers?




    So when you go out to buy your EV, how much choice do you get in the M-B dealer, or the BMW one, or the VW one, or ...


     




     

    So if you go to the car dealership and order your new car along with the installation of an EV charger at your home how much choice are you going to get?


    I cannot help but think that many people will just get what the EV charger the installation company and car dealership wants to install, rather than maybe what is best for the customer.


    I cannot imagine many people ever ask for a declaration of conformity before placing their order for the car, the charger or anything else associated with them. I can also imagine that those who do are quite possibly considered a pain in the butt.


    Andy B.
  • 0

    The Type B (or Type A or F plus RDC-DD) would still be required for the EVSE.


    I don't think there's a requirement (or need) for upstream devices to be anything more onerous than Type A, as the downstream device detects the DC residual current fault. A few manufacturers have been supplying Type A rather than Type AC for a few years now.



    If you've got a type B RCD for the charge point it seems you can't be confident that the d.c. fault will be disconnected unless the d.c. residual current is above 60mA - while 6mA appears to be sufficient to disrupt an upstream A type. I gather that d.c. faults in typical mode 3 system could be naturally limited - perhaps to 12 or 15mA - or even less when the fault may take parallel paths only some of which pass through the supply RCD(s).


    If you've got an A EV type RCD or RDC-DD for the charge point then d.c. faults over 6mA should be disconnected - which should indeed protect upstream A-type RCDs provided there are no other sources of d.c. fault currents. If you have multiple charge points then you're perhaps back to having a risk of the cumulative d.c. residual current seen by upstream RCDs exceeding 6mA again (depending on your view of how many faults to danger you're willing to accept, baring in mind that these faults may not be detected either automatically or during an EICR (as a broken c.p.c. should be)).


       - Andy.
  • 0

    John Peckham:

    Has any forum member asked for a Declaration of Conformity from EV charging equipment manufacturers and received one?




    https://andersen-ev.com/andersen-a2/specs/

    No DoC from these guys just this spec.

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