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Table 52.3. Could someone explain it to me, again, please!

alanblaby
I've done an EICR this morning, all in perfect condition, apart from two Code 3's, a plastic CU, and a boiler supply on a 1mm T+E cable.

I've marked it as a '3', as Table 52.3 says a 'power circuit' , should be supplied by a minimum conductor size of 1.5mm.

This circuit is protected by a 6 amp, type B circuit breaker, and further on, a 3 amp BS1363 fuse.

So there is no safety issue at all.


Has it ever been explained why this table has been included, and why these figures are used?
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    In a word, harmonization. 1.5mm2 is the smallest cable size associated with the continental combined lights and power circuit, as it is usually breakered at 16A or less,  in some places 10A(France) or 13A  (Swiss).

    1 mm is a bit weedy mechanically,, but it is far less likely to be snapped when permanently clipped to the wall than it is in  a flex to an appliance, and we allow it there.


    The cartridge fuse either in the plug or in an FCU near the load is a uniquely UK concept.


    However, in general the continental installations  do not have a 1mm2 cpc in their 1.5mm2 cables either, and as yet the UK has not moved to requiring a  full size CPC. Though it may happen - it has in Eire.
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    Table 52.3 is nonsense.
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    I think we concluded that last time too.


    Does the thing have a light on it ?
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    Yes, I looked at this and couldn't come to a logical conclusion (mechanical protection, high Zs etc) other than some diplomatic fix.

    I would have thought that a shortish circuit length, secured and mechanically protected, plus the use of a distribution board 6A fuse/mcb with local isolation and a possible 3A cartridge fuse warrents a code 3 at worst......until it comes to filling out a landlords certificate and then you're entering the land of the pedants and the jolly jobs worth territory.

    Legh
  • 0
    Legh Richardson:

    ......until it comes to filling out a landlords certificate and then you're entering the land of the pedants and the jolly jobs worth territory.




    Exactly.

    This is a rented house. As an Inspector, I think it is safe.

    But according to a post on here last week, all rented property must comply with BS7671:2018.

    So this install doesnt.

    It isnt any less safe, but it doesnt comply.

    Or have I got it wrong, and rented property only has to be safe?


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    As far as house renting goes, the installation has to comply with BS7671:2018 at all times (*), but the law doesn't say that the inspection and test has to be against BS7671 (although the landlord may of course choose for it to be).


    (*) So if a tenant damages a socket and doesn't report it to the landlord, the landlord is still technically guilty, and has to rely on the common sense of the LA or tribunal not to fine him/her.
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    It's a bit like saying that a "power circuit" (are there any circuits which do not transmit power?) cannot be rated at less than 10 A i.e. the lowest rated configuration for 1.5 mm² cable in Tables 4D*.


    In fact 1.5 mm² T&E is no use for a power circuit because the CPC is only 1.0 mm² (524.1) unless it is a spur using an FCU (Appendix 15).


    Regarding EICRs, I would suggest that an installation complies if it has been inspected and tested i.a.w. Part 6 and nothing worse than C3 has been found.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    alanblaby:

    I've done an EICR this morning, all in perfect condition, apart from two Code 3's, a plastic CU, and a boiler supply on a 1mm T+E cable.

    I've marked it as a '3', as Table 52.3 says a 'power circuit' , should be supplied by a minimum conductor size of 1.5mm.

    This circuit is protected by a 6 amp, type B circuit breaker, and further on, a 3 amp BS1363 fuse.

    So there is no safety issue at all.


    Has it ever been explained why this table has been included, and why these figures are used?


    Hi Alan, did the customer specifically request that C3s were specifically recorded or do you provide this extra EICR service for free? 

    https://www2.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=61562


  • 0

    https://www2.theiet.org/forums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=205&threadid=61562




    That thread shows more confusion.

    Do posts on here ever get reported back to the relevant Committees? Geoff?

    Why dont we get some guidance, as, at the moment, a boiler on a 1mm T+E circuit needs to be replaced in a rented house, as it does not comply, which is mad, as it is totally safe.

    In fact 1.5 mm² T&E is no use for a power circuit because the CPC is only 1.0 mm² (524.1) unless it is a spur using an FCU (Appendix 15)


    524.1 references Table 52.3. 

    App. 15 is informative, and doesnt show 10 or 16 Amp circuit protection, so obviously smaller cable is not used in the diagrams.

    With good design, and circuit calculations, a 1mm conductor will be more than adequate for a 3 amp 'power circuit' load. 

    But it cannot be used due to Table 52.3.

     


  • 0
    Thealanblaby:
    Legh Richardson:

    ......until it comes to filling out a landlords certificate and then you're entering the land of the pedants and the jolly jobs worth territory.




    Exactly.

    This is a rented house. As an Inspector, I think it is safe.

    But according to a post on here last week, all rented property must comply with BS7671:2018.

    So this install doesnt.

    It isnt any less safe, but it doesnt comply.

    Or have I got it wrong, and rented property only has to be safe?




    The official government guidance is that a C3 does not represent a fail, and doesn't need to be fixed. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector-guidance-for-landlords-tenants-and-local-authorities/guide-for-landlords-electrical-safety-standards-in-the-private-rented-sector

    A C1 or C2 requires fixing within 28 days.


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