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Are RCD's Required?

Nano Brewery
Hi, looking to understand if an RCD would be a required regulation (and/or just highly recommended) in the following situation.  The additional cost of installing four or five 3-Phase RCDs is quite substantial and I would prefer to avoid it if still deemed as safe and not legally required.  Earthing system is TN-C-S.


For connecting up 4x Immersion Elements (9kW, 9kW, 6kW, 3kW) in Brewery Tanks I am looking at either:


A.  SWA Cable clipped direct to basket from the Control Panel to IP rated Plugs/Sockets mounted on the wall.  Then floating SY Cable (recommended by electrician) from the wall to the Tanks, which is about a 2m run.  Thinking Plugs/Sockets just to make life easy if I ever want to move things around and also for easier access for cleaning.


B.  Same as above but swapping the Plugs/Sockets for Isolators.


Look forward to your feedback and opinions.  Cheers.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Stoneworld:
    Then floating SY Cable (recommended by electrician) from the wall to the Tanks, which is about a 2m run. 


     

    nobody commented on the use of SY, Wouldn't HO7 be the right cable to use here?


    Hi stonesy, we are awaiting confirmation of the panel manufacturers instructions from the op. 


    Welcome to the fora :)


  • 0
    nobody commented on the use of SY, Wouldn't HO7 be the right cable to use here?

    Hard to say. H07RN-F type are certainly reasonably tough, but they're not indestructable. If the environment was such that there was a reasonable risk of the flex being cut into or otherwise damaged through to the conductors, then having some means of triggering automatic disconnection (by means of the steel braid being earthed) might be a little more reassuring than just relying on the insulation & sheath. SY does have its challenges - not least its lack of direct recognition under UK standards, and some care might be needed to ensure that any particular version is adequate for the purpose (including the braid's adequacy as a c.p.c.) - but manufacuters data can sometimes help there.


       - Andy.
  • 0
    I suggest you can certainly use SY with a CPC core so thre brad  is not your only earth, but do earth the braid - the strands can be combed and crimped to make an earth 'tail' if need be, depending on the fitting you are trying to connect to . It may not be on the regs approved list, but it is no worse that HOR or artic, and is a lot better in a hostile setting.

    regards

    Mike.
  • 0
    Weirdbeard:
    Weirdbeard:

    Hi nano were there any installation instructions with the panel? A link would help :)


     


    Hi nano, any update on this? 






    Cheers Weirdbeard!  No instructions with the Control Panel ;) 


    To clarify the Control Panel has 6 Three-phase circuits.  Each circuit has Rail Mounted Cartridge Fuses, Contactors, On/Off Rotary Switches and Pilot Lights.  At present I will only be using 4 of these circuits to switch each of the immersion elements when required.  2 of the 4 circuits being used will be switched via PID for temperature control, simple on/off switching of Contactors when set temperature is reached. 


    It does not have any RCD protection which I feel I would like for extra protection? 


    Wondering if a direct feed from a Distribution Board RCD to the Control Panel could be an option for universal protection at less cost?  Is this possible and allowed?  Alternatively, maybe Tails split with a Henley Box >>> RCD (stand alone) >>> Control Panel?


  • 0
    AJJewsbury:
    Higher current ones do exist that would do, (63 amp example) but not in great numbers or variety or indeed from the famous names.

     

    Isn't that an RCCB rather than an RCBO?

    An RCD incomer and followed by  MCB protection might be easier to source the bits for.

    Or just an MCB in the (existing?) board and a separate RCCB afterwards (if RCD protection is indeed needed)

    So can we agree that RCD protection is not required?

    Depends still - there still seems to be a suggestion of plugs & sockets (although strictly speaking the 30mA RCD requirement wouldn't apply to a 63A one feeding everything, although 0.4s disconnection time would). I'm also a bit in two minds about not having seen the situation - I'm imagining a lot of stainless steel, possibly wet concrete floors, large things being possibly being moved about from time to time, certainly large quantities of liquids (both production and cleaning), and operation by non-electrically skilled persons (although I might be confusing it with a winery I visited once).  If so, a bit of additional protection might not go amiss.


    I do wonder if it could be simplified by splitting the heaters into two groups having an extra controller and then feeding each from a simple 32A RCD protected socket (63A sockets looks to be surprisingly (reassuringly?) expensive).


       - Andy.




    Cheers Andy. 


    "I'm imagining a lot of stainless steel, possibly wet concrete floors, large things being possibly being moved about from time to time, certainly large quantities of liquids (both production and cleaning)"      - Yes ;)  It will only be myself operating any of the equipment.


    Wondering if a direct feed from a Distribution Board RCD to the Control Panel could be an option for universal protection at less cost?  Is this possible and allowed?  Alternatively, maybe Tails split via a Henley Box >>> RCD (stand alone) >>> Control Panel?


     


  • 0
    though without having socket outlet it is better to have RCD   then if cable damage by accidently connect with metal structure  power will goes off  without harm  to any thing ,,MCB or fuse is activate by presser high current
  • 0
    My advice to you is to get a good design engineer to design the installation for you and then get a competent electrical contractor to do the installation.


    Trying to get advice on this forum is one thing but it is no substitute for having a robust compliant design!
  • 0
    John Peckham:

    My advice to you is to get a good design engineer to design the installation for you and then get a competent electrical contractor to do the installation.


    Trying to get advice on this forum is one thing but it is no substitute for having a robust compliant design!


    I couldn't agree more. We seem to be going round in circles. The notion of having an RCD, but no OCPD in the circuit is a bit worrying.


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Nano Brewery:



    Cheers Weirdbeard!  No instructions with the Control Panel ;) 



    ok, thanks for the reply. Would it possible for you to share some pics of the panel, your existing supply, meter, fusboxes, the general area of the tanks and surroundings etc, ie are you doing this in a double garage at home or a commercial unit?


  • 0
    Wondering if a direct feed from a Distribution Board RCD to the Control Panel could be an option for universal protection at less cost? Is this possible and allowed? Alternatively, maybe Tails split via a Henley Box >>> RCD (stand alone) >>> Control Panel?

    Definitely not tails to RCD to control panel - you'd need some circuit overcurrent protection in there. MCB (or fuses) in the DB, to a separate RCD (usually an RCCB) and thence to the control panel sounds reasonable. If you wanted to avoid going through the existing DB (perhaps it doesn't have sufficient spare capacity) you could have separate switchfuse or small DB - but then you'd have to be careful if the exiting DB's incomer acts as the main switch for the installation - if so you'd likely need something extra upstream. But as before, it's hard to be sure on the best approach without being able to see the complete situation.

       - Andy.

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