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Do you install fire alarm systems?

Chris Pearson
Bit of thread drift going on elsewhere, so I have started a new one.


"Do you install fire alarm systems?" - a question which is asked on insurance renewal, but what does it mean?


IMHO, there is a world of difference between providing a mains supply with third core for linking for a couple of smoke detectors and a heat detector in the kitchen on the one hand (i.e. the minimum grade D2 LD3); and a full on panel with separate detectors and sounder etc. (grade A LD2) in a large house. I consider myself perfectly capable of providing the former, but have never attempted the latter.


So where does the threshold lie? I'd be interested in views on certification too please.
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    Chris Pearson:

    Bit of thread drift going on elsewhere, so I have started a new one.


    "Do you install fire alarm systems?" - a question which is asked on insurance renewal, but what does it mean?


    IMHO, there is a world of difference between providing a mains supply with third core for linking for a couple of smoke detectors and a heat detector in the kitchen on the one hand (i.e. the minimum grade D2 LD3); and a full on panel with separate detectors and sounder etc. (grade A LD2) in a large house. I consider myself perfectly capable of providing the former, but have never attempted the latter.


    So where does the threshold lie? I'd be interested in views on certification too please.


    Are you concerned about a good design Chris or just the wiring aspects of a full fire alarm system?


    Z.


  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    I've generally found that if the house is big enough to need that level of coverage the client also wants off site monitoring and a stuff hot security system, so it ends up being put in by someone like ADT as part of a fire and security package.
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    Fire Alarm Installation UK - Scout Hut Episode 9 - Bing vid


    Edit, add.


    I would sleeve the bare leads of the resistors and capacitors.


    I consider  S.P.D.s essential after seeing all of the vulnerable  panel electronic components.


    Why do we use C.P.C.s on extra low Voltage circuits? The system is only 24 Volts.




    Z.
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    Amanda Lewin:

    I've generally found that if the house is big enough to need that level of coverage the client also wants off site monitoring and a stuff hot security system, so it ends up being put in by someone like ADT as part of a fire and security package. 


    I suppose that depends upon what is hanging on the walls. Of course, insurers may insist on a fire and security package, but it is the AD to Part B that I was thinking about. Getting up to 200 m² may not be too difficult if you have a large conservatory and a swimming pool.


  • 0
    Zoomup:

    Are you concerned about a good design Chris or just the wiring aspects of a full fire alarm system.


    Neither really. I was just wondering whether I am qualified to install even a simple system.


  • 0
    Chris Pearson:
    Zoomup:

    Are you concerned about a good design Chris or just the wiring aspects of a full fire alarm system.


    Neither really. I was just wondering whether I am qualified to install even a simple system.




    The installation should not be a problem for you Chris. Some fire design experts can provide a design if you need one as the where to position what. See fleabay.


    Z.


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    "Do you install fire alarm systems?" - a question which is asked on insurance renewal, but what does it mean?

    I'd suggest the only place to get a definite answer is from the insurance company asking the question. It's their definition you need rather than anyone else's - as they'll be quick enough to point out should it matter come claim time.


    In my head a "smoke alarm" (or a CO alarm for that matter) is just a smoke (or CO) alarm, rather than a fire alarm system - but I can appreciate the ambiguity.


       - Andy.
  • Former Community Member
    0 Former Community Member
    Quite some time ago I got involved in a situation where a claim was being made for the valuable contents of a house where the fire detection and alarm system that had been installed didn't work. The client's insurers had a clause that cover was only valid if the system worked. It obviously didn't so the installing contractor was invited for a meeting "without coffee". He wasn't too worried as he had declared to his insurer's that he undertook fire alarms. But, he hadn't read or if he had, he didn't understand his insurer's "get out clause" of efficacy. It was an expensive lesson.... He did try and pass it over to the equipment supplier but they could afford "better" lawyers and they had a nationwide reputation to look after.


    Check your insurance small print for not only scope of work but if there is an efficacy exclusion typically applied to fire alarm and burglar alarm systems.............


    I for one have had the definition of efficacy levelled at me, but not for work!!!!


    Regards


    BOD
  • 0
    Good question Chris - since BS7671 now references the presence or otherwise of mains powered smoke/heat alarms in a domestic installation, does the provision of, come under the reporting section of a EICR with regard to the wiring regs or the fire regs?


    Another example of cross-over where uncertainty lies, and the argument against over-reach is a valid one.

    Should BS7671 concern itself with the measurement of effectiveness of any mains-powered smoke/heat alarm system? Either already present, or proposed as part of a quote for a rewire?

    Similarly, what about the replacement of sensors on an existing mains powered installation?

    I ask because I have been tasked with the provision of a quote to provide replacement  smoke and heat alarms in a 13 year old domestic dwelling. Although the job is easy and straight forward, I have absolutely no idea as to where any future liability lies. It's a real can of worms.

    I purposely stay away from panel-based fire alarm systems,especially in public buildings, similarly I steer well clear of burglar and security systems across the board - the liability/indemnity insurance premiums for both are outrageously expensive for the one or two jobs of this nature which I may or may not be asked to provide for domestic rewire requests.

    I usually advise the client to seek specialist advice from a dedicated contractor in these particular fields. No way do I want any liability for failure when it comes to public buildings, despite being wholly capable of installing such systems myself.

    As Eastwood said in a famous movie "A man's gotta know his limitations". Mine are exposure to any claims arising from any 'failure to perform' when it comes to fire/security systems for pubic buildings - I simply cannot afford nor justify the insurance premiums for such works.

    After Grenfell, the Big Boys are effing well welcome to the work if they have the bottle to do it.
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    Hardwired smoke and heat alarms are a fire alarm system and their installation is within the scope of BS7671, you cannot just ignore them when you are doing an EICR.


    If you are not inspecting and testing the wiring for an alarm system of any type for an EICR you have to specifically state on the EICR that they are excluded from the report and the client needs to get a report from a specialist company.


    How an electrician or inspector could justify not inspecting and testing a mains voltage smoke alarm circuit for an EICR is beyond me, as is how they could inspect and test the smoke alarm circuit but not say that the actual alarms are not fit for purpose, because for example they expired several years ago.

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