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Neon and LED 230V rope lights

justinneedham

One of my customers has asked for Neon rope lights to string round a garden path on ground level. 

Up till now I'd not really considered these and naively assumed that they would all be SELV. Not so. Turns out that many are 230V, commonly AFAICT with 2-wire (no CPC). Not only that, the connections are potentially "customer made" by shoving sharp prongs into the end and where they are cut (typically at 1M intervals) the live wires are shrouded with a push-on plastic cap. 

With glue and care I’m sure I might make a good job of it. Despite this, it immediately rings bells regarding 412.2.1.2. Even the basic insulation on the cut end is field-applied during erection. Makes me think that for the use cases often illustrated, damage is one problem and pull-off of ends another. Some suppliers seem to offer very rudimentary fittings with push-on ends. Others go to more lengths to ensure instructions (sleeving and adhesive) are followed.

Does the mind here have a view regarding these in general use? It seems to me that images of them as walk-on items along paths are a trifle irresponsible. Fitting onto an architectural thing more acceptable. I’m quite likely to suggest NOT for this customer.

My guess is that since they are a “luminaire”, not a “conductor”,  they maybe evade BS7671. The rope light not being defined as a single insulated cable “needing” CPC. If fitted anywhere conductive though, (example, wound round a metal garden chain, - a common use model), they might, to me, be classified as “Class 0”. Any thoughts?


  • 0
    Traditional festoon lamp holders have IDC- insulation distribution connectors , which is a posh name for two pins that push through a flat twin cable.


    It is obviously not a good idea to move or replace the lamp holder on the cable leaving the old holes open.

    https://lightingspares.co.uk/products/jeani-a60-es-black-plastic-festoon-lampholder
  • 0
    Goodness only knows what this means ?


    This black thermoplastic E27 lamp holder is specifically designed to autonomously compose your Lumet string lights.

    https://www.creative-cables.co.uk/lumet-accessories-for-outdoor-string-lights/17407-e27-black-thermoplastic-lamp-holder-for-string-lights-8429760242444.html


  • 0
    I agree they're probably outside BS 7671 - more likely being covered by some product standard (not sure which one though).


    I'd guess the "rope" overall provides "reinforced" rather than "double" insulation - so probably still Class II rather than Class 0. The ones I've seen appear to be reasonably tough - probably similar to rubber H07 flex in robustness at a guess. I agree the joints/ends will have to be done with care, but you can get lengths factory cut & terminated which hopefully reduces that risk somewhat.


    As for running them on the ground where they might  be stood on etc - I might think of them as similar as flex - if you'd be happy to run an extension lead in that position temporarily, then I'd not be overly worried about ropelights. Taking account of manufacturer's instructions, IP ratings etc of course.

       - Andy.
  • 0
    Arguably they need to be at least as good as a bayonet lampholder - as we already allow those out in the rain in festoons after all.

    I'd certainly be a bit wary of fitting either rope light or bayonet lamp holders in locations with children or drunk adults could fiddle with them - I have seen a number or ropelights where the mains insulation is not great, and end covers could easily be removed.


    There are certainly  12v or 24V versions available both rope and flat strip that are LED based, sometimes sold for ponds and tubs, but they are not really that common.

    Mike
  • 0
    justinneedham:

    One of my customers has asked for Neon rope lights to string round a garden path on ground level. 

    Up till now I'd not really considered these and naively assumed that they would all be SELV. Not so. Turns out that many are 230V, commonly AFAICT with 2-wire (no CPC). Not only that, the connections are potentially "customer made" by shoving sharp prongs into the end and where they are cut (typically at 1M intervals) the live wires are shrouded with a push-on plastic cap. 

    With glue and care I’m sure I might make a good job of it. Despite this, it immediately rings bells regarding 412.2.1.2. Even the basic insulation on the cut end is field-applied during erection. Makes me think that for the use cases often illustrated, damage is one problem and pull-off of ends another. Some suppliers seem to offer very rudimentary fittings with push-on ends. Others go to more lengths to ensure instructions (sleeving and adhesive) are followed.

    Does the mind here have a view regarding these in general use? It seems to me that images of them as walk-on items along paths are a trifle irresponsible. Fitting onto an architectural thing more acceptable. I’m quite likely to suggest NOT for this customer.

    My guess is that since they are a “luminaire”, not a “conductor”,  they maybe evade BS7671. The rope light not being defined as a single insulated cable “needing” CPC. If fitted anywhere conductive though, (example, wound round a metal garden chain, - a common use model), they might, to me, be classified as “Class 0”. Any thoughts?




    Are you really talking about "rope lights" or festoon lighting? A rope light used to refer to a string of lights contained within a transparent flexible insulating tube like a hose pipe. I am sure that I read somewhere that the repositionable type lamp holders with two sharp brass pins used with a flat rubberised cable were not recommended for use any more in these safety conscious times. But I can not remember where.

    Rubber Festoon Lighting for Exterior Use | 10m with 10 BC Lampholders IP55 | Traditional Festoons at Essential Supplies


    I was thinking of 17th edition Reg. 711.559.4.5 ref. insulation piercing lamp holders to be non-removable. Latest 18th ed. book not to hand

    .

    Z.


  • 0
    Yes, Rope lights. Numerous sellers seem to stock them. 230V direct. My customer was attracted to https://www.mr-resistor.co.uk/item.aspx?i=15090 . It's un-reassuringly cheap and uses sharp pins and push-on end caps. There are several sellers with this stuff.

    There are obviously SELV external led-strip/rope type products, and I'll head them off that way. 


  • 0
    justinneedham:

    Yes, Rope lights. Numerous sellers seem to stock them. 230V direct. My customer was attracted to https://www.mr-resistor.co.uk/item.aspx?i=15090 . It's un-reassuringly cheap and uses sharp pins and push-on end caps. There are several sellers with this stuff.

    There are obviously SELV external led-strip/rope type products, and I'll head them off that way. 


     


    The term "Neon" confused me as "neons" are not filament lamps. Neon lamps are small discharge lamps as found in neon screwdrivers and indicators.


    Z.


    Z.


  • 0
    Zoomup:
    justinneedham:

    Yes, Rope lights. Numerous sellers seem to stock them. 230V direct. My customer was attracted to https://www.mr-resistor.co.uk/item.aspx?i=15090 . It's un-reassuringly cheap and uses sharp pins and push-on end caps. There are several sellers with this stuff.

    There are obviously SELV external led-strip/rope type products, and I'll head them off that way. 


     


    The term "Neon" confused me as "neons" are not filament lamps. Neon lamps are small discharge lamps as found in neon screwdrivers and indicators.


    Z.


    Z.




    "Neon" is increasingly being used for flexible LED strips encased in a brightly coloured rubbery plastic.  The light that comes out is so diffused, you might mistake it for real neon.


  • 0
    AFAICT, there really are genuine neon versions of these ropes (given away perhaps by quoted 10 Lm/Watt which sounds plausible), there are also more commonly LED versions, (often still called "neon" by sellers) using a string of direct-driven LED to make up the mains voltage, much like the filament led bulbs. hence the cut-length at 1M,

    I could be wrong about the former.

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