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Who is the electrical installation designer?

AncientMariner
With my County Councillor hat on (many of you are aware that besides being a retired Merchant Navy Officer and a former Civil Servant (RAF avionics) I am currently a County Councillor, in Wales - with their own Part P!) I have been asked for advice regarding a new electrical installation in a barn conversion.


It is not a re-wire, since there was no electrical installation there at all previously, but instead this is the complete electrical installation for a four bedroom holiday accommodation to a high standard.


Now the problem:  The switching for lighting is idiotic. By this I mean that 1) The outside lighting adjacent to doors and for patios and hot-tub area, is controlled by various switches in bedrooms often with the illuminated outside area not adjacent to the outside door or switch. Generally 2-gang switches with the other gang for the room itself. 2) Bedside lights have been configured so that at either side of each bed there is a 2-way switch to the other side of the bed which switches on the down lights from the ceiling for both sides of the bed. Again these switches are 2-gang and the other gang switches the main ceiling lights, which negates the purpose of having supposedly separate over-bed lighting. The owners wish was that each side of the bed controlled the ceiling down light for that side of the bed without any need or requirement to have this 2-way with the other side. 3) there are areas with steps where due to the local lighting location, you end up walking into darkness.


Being holiday accommodation, you are not there long enough to learn the idiosyncrasies of the switching arrangement, and the fear is that a holiday resident may be injured


It is fixable, but only by cutting through the new plaster and decoration in various locations in each room. But that is somewhat extreme and destructive for a brand new installation. Another electrician has estimated around £2,000 to fix, but that would entail some exposed wiring outside. 


Originally a quote was given for the work and in time the 1st fix was paid for at that stage.    Now the bill for 2nd fix has arrived and it is greater (just under £2,000 greater) than quoted. The customer has paid the NICEIC registered electrician the quotation price plus money for agreed extras (a couple of hundred). In response the electrician is threatening small claims court unless his inflated Invoice for some £1,000 more is paid by year end.


His excuse is that he was not given the architects plans showing what was required, in reality what was wanted was by discussion and with locations etc marked on the walls before wiring and plastering.


So as per my post title, who is the electrical installation designer?  Who is responsible for drawing up a diagram of what is wanted/required?  The property owner is not electrically qualified.


And of course, what should the person who contacted me (property owner) do?


Many thanks.


Clive




  • 0
    Of course "electrical designer" can apply to two different roles: someone who decides where would be useful places for light fittings and switches and will look pretty; and someone who works out how to implement that, with the right types of cable, switches and protection etc such that it's safe and functions to spec. What is the "designer" on the EIC signing off to?
  • 0
    Architects!


    Daughter has recently received planning permission for an annex with link room to existing house, and garage.


    The architect has cut off some ground floor roof where the new will join the old. That's fine, but what will he (or she) do with all the cables which serve that part of the house and which would then be exposed to the elements? I am not supposed to interfere! ?
  • 0
    The last job I did that was supervised by an Architect was about three years ago, the lighting design did not meet the clients requirements.


    I questioned the specification for the grey down lights in the kitchen extension at seventy odd quid each, as the rest of the kitchen has readily available chrome fittings costing a tenner each.


    I was told by the builder to just do what the architect said, which I did then afterwards we altered it all to suit the clients requirements at extra cost, including replacing the kitchen extension down lights.


    Overall I could have saved the client over one and a half thousand pounds by having a meeting with them and the architect before carrying out the work as specified, with issues such as having to install LED flood lights because the fancy GU10 “Up Down” lighting only illuminated the walls with a wash of light, not the steps and path up to the door, so you could see the garden room but could not get to it safely.


     But I know my place in the pecking order and when I am told to follow the architects instructions I do.


    Some customers do allow me to fo my own thing, but I have never been accused of providing something that didn’t meet their expectations, only questioned as to if some refinements were actually required.


    From experience the issues stated in the first post about the outdoor lighting I suspect they may well be problems created by the customers and designers rather than by the electrician.


  • 0
    No doubt as the installation is in service the electrian has issued an EIC? 


    This is cannot be withheld regardless of any payment made. If this has not been done the owner should request it. If this is no done then the NICEIC will accept that as a complaint. They will instruct the contractor to supply it.


    That will/should have the name of the designer and a signature to say it has been designed to meet the requirements of BS 7671. Then the names of the constructor and inspector who will have certified compliance with BS 7671. Alternatively there may be a single signature for all 3 tasks.
  • 0
    As far as the customer is concerned, especially with the small claims process possibly on the horizon, there are two immediate actions.


    Firstly to create a written schedule of all the problems with the current installation, and why he considers it inadequate - this is why he is withholding payment after all.  (Perhaps indicating what he was expecting as well, though ideally that should have existed at the outset) and to give this to the electrician.


    After all, if it cannot be avoided that it goes to court, this sort  of documentation will be needed anyway - otherwise it just looks like  an unpaid bill for work done.


    Secondly,if not already provided, he should request from the electrician a detailed breakdown of the extra £1K on the bill, and to ask why it was not mentioned as soon as it became obvious that the costs were going to rise significantly over the estimate.

    Unless this is a big barn, that is quite a lot of extra kit, or a good few full days of additional labour that need to be accounted for - there may be a good reason for it, or there may not.


    It is important to keep all communications civil, and ideally backed up in writing, even if he ends up with some correspondence that reads like....

    "further to our 'phone call of this morning, here is a brief note to capture our conclusions in writing, please let me know if you disagree " However, if that happens he needs to avoid saying anything that is not pertinent and factual. A rambling diatribe of insults is not helpful, on either side.  A third party dispassionate  pair of eyes as a good proof -reader is recommended.


    The electrician may well be cheesed off for not being paid for doing what he thinks the client asked for.

    Regards Mike
  • 0
    I love clients who declare they are “Project managers”.
  • 0
    One question is was it an estimate or a fixed price?


    An estimate would usually be expected to be a plus or minus 10% range say.

    A fixed price would be expected to be a fixed price but , within certain very strict criteria, might be altered.

    a "Quote or qoutation" has no legal meaning, it is just an estimate


    there isa party or parties who is/are the designers but it seems it needs untangling to decide who is

    1/ electrical designer with regards to electrical safety

    2/ project designer with regards to finished function
  • 0
    perspicacious:

     Architect is responsible (that's one reason they charge so much) as they are supposed to supervise the entire build.


    This touches on what used to be my favourite sport!


    Go into the architects meeting with the client as his representative and wait for the opportunity to talk about the EL and FA items all very neatly dotted all over the drawings and casually ask the architect if he had done these designs.

    Mindful of charging the client for the design as a percentage of the cost of these installs (typically 15%) the architect's immediate response was "yes" said quite dismissively.

    My response was to hand over the appropriate BS certificates with the address etc prefilled and say that "you won't mind signing the design part of these then" as a statement............

    You could hear reverse gear being engaged without using the clutch!!!

    My next response was to say that the pretty dots are just an "artist's impression" then.............

    Same went for the electrical certificate. 


    Odd, I never worked out why I was never invited to any of their "corporate days out", ultimately financed by the client................


    Regards


    BOD

     


    Bod. That just reminded me why we all love you so much.

    ?


  • 0
    gkenyon:
     

    Given that this work is for a holiday let, it is difficult to see how the client could be a "domestic client".


    My understanding of the Regulations (which are not excessively long) is that the responsibilities of the Principal Designer are to ensure that the programme of work is safe and that work complies with the appropriate standards (including BS 7671). I don't see any statutory duty to ensure that the design does what the client wants it to do. That is a matter of contract.




    I understood that may have been the case, so this bit of my diatribe applies:

     



    Now, here's the rub for the poor electrician/contractor. If the works were  more extensive than the electrical work, and they failed to ascertain who the Principal Contractor or Designer was, they were not legally entitled to start work under CDM Regulations.


    So, in essence, the question always comes back to the electrical contractor / electrician, and I think the burden is on them unless they can demonstrate otherwise.



    Basically, if the contractual arrangements were there, it should be an easy question to answer. If not, the electrical contractor should not have started work.

     




    Absolutely Graham. Unfortunately it is clear that the basic requirements of the CDM Regs have not arrived in many parts of electrical installation land. Many contractors remain completely oblivious and there appears to be little in the way of trying to get the message across. I make a deliberate attempt to embrace CDM as a founding feature of all our projects, especially the smaller ones where Clients want to use Jimmy the builder and Billy the spark. 


  • 0
    I suspect that no-one is going to rush to be responsible, for a badly defined job thoughtlessly implemented.

    now to fix it, it may be easier to install some wireless switches in the right places, rather than hack the place apart.

    the receiver goes where the switch would have gone or beside the fitting


    various switches are available


    Pricey in terms of parts, but maybe not once plastering and so forth is factored in.

    regards Mike.

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