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Who is the electrical installation designer?

AncientMariner
With my County Councillor hat on (many of you are aware that besides being a retired Merchant Navy Officer and a former Civil Servant (RAF avionics) I am currently a County Councillor, in Wales - with their own Part P!) I have been asked for advice regarding a new electrical installation in a barn conversion.


It is not a re-wire, since there was no electrical installation there at all previously, but instead this is the complete electrical installation for a four bedroom holiday accommodation to a high standard.


Now the problem:  The switching for lighting is idiotic. By this I mean that 1) The outside lighting adjacent to doors and for patios and hot-tub area, is controlled by various switches in bedrooms often with the illuminated outside area not adjacent to the outside door or switch. Generally 2-gang switches with the other gang for the room itself. 2) Bedside lights have been configured so that at either side of each bed there is a 2-way switch to the other side of the bed which switches on the down lights from the ceiling for both sides of the bed. Again these switches are 2-gang and the other gang switches the main ceiling lights, which negates the purpose of having supposedly separate over-bed lighting. The owners wish was that each side of the bed controlled the ceiling down light for that side of the bed without any need or requirement to have this 2-way with the other side. 3) there are areas with steps where due to the local lighting location, you end up walking into darkness.


Being holiday accommodation, you are not there long enough to learn the idiosyncrasies of the switching arrangement, and the fear is that a holiday resident may be injured


It is fixable, but only by cutting through the new plaster and decoration in various locations in each room. But that is somewhat extreme and destructive for a brand new installation. Another electrician has estimated around £2,000 to fix, but that would entail some exposed wiring outside. 


Originally a quote was given for the work and in time the 1st fix was paid for at that stage.    Now the bill for 2nd fix has arrived and it is greater (just under £2,000 greater) than quoted. The customer has paid the NICEIC registered electrician the quotation price plus money for agreed extras (a couple of hundred). In response the electrician is threatening small claims court unless his inflated Invoice for some £1,000 more is paid by year end.


His excuse is that he was not given the architects plans showing what was required, in reality what was wanted was by discussion and with locations etc marked on the walls before wiring and plastering.


So as per my post title, who is the electrical installation designer?  Who is responsible for drawing up a diagram of what is wanted/required?  The property owner is not electrically qualified.


And of course, what should the person who contacted me (property owner) do?


Many thanks.


Clive




  • 0
    As a first stab, I say the contractor was probably the designer in this case (who's signature is on the design section of the cert?) - although the decision on the location/arrangement of lightswitches etc I would have thought would have been more a matter of customer requirements rather than electrical design.


        - Andy.
  • 0
    It sounds to me as if you have caught a shark! As the plans showed no electrical design, even down to a specification of requirements, there is going to be a problem. Usually, the electrical designer will have an overall specification and discuss it with the Architect and Client, and agree on any obvious changes, positions, etc. This then usually ends up on the plans from the Architect, and the electrical designer then writes a schedule for the Electrician, along with any additional drawings required. None of this has happened, and overall the Architect is responsible (that's one reason they charge so much) as they are supposed to supervise the entire build.


    In this case, the designer is probably the electrician, and his first defense will be that no one gave him instructions, but he failed in that he did not ask either! His ideas are obviously rather odd, and he has done as little install work as possible, using multiple gang accessories. As a first step (which he will need anyway) I would ask for the reason that he has increased his original quotation and an exact list of the extra works. If, as I suspect, the work was not against quotation but a simple instruction (probably verbal) to "Do the Electrics" I am afraid there is no come-back. If he was instructed by the Architect, then as para 1, and the Architect is responsible for correcting the problems. If you are Project Manager, then as para 2.


    I asume he has provided an Electrical Installation Certificate, if not, pay nothing until it forthcoming, it is an essential part of the work!


    Caveat Emptor applies as in all contracts.
  • 0
    AncientMariner:

    His excuse is that he was not given the architects plans showing what was required, in reality what was wanted was by discussion and with locations etc marked on the walls before wiring and plastering.


    So as per my post title, who is the electrical installation designer?  Who is responsible for drawing up a diagram of what is wanted/required?  The property owner is not electrically qualified.


    It's all there somewhere in the contract, but disentangling it may take some effort.


    If the quote was for a fixed price, that is all the electrician is entitled to; but if it was an estimate, the customer will have to pay up.


    I would say that in terms of an EIC, the designer is responsible for ensuring that the installation is compliant and no more.


    In an ideal world, the architect should have agreed the lighting arrangement with the customer and ensured that sufficient information was passed to the electrician; but I think that a walk around with position of back boxes chalked on the blockwork could be sufficient. If the customer did not specify exactly the bedroom switching arrangement, it sounds as though the electrician has made a reasonable interpretation.


    The customer paid on completion of first fix. That suggests that the customer was satisfied with the first fix.


    I wouldn't want to deal with self-builders on a regular basis!


  • 0
    The electrician must have had some instructions from the client, even if it was “Just do what you like”.


    From experience, having been an expert witness in couple of court cases, even a sketch on the back of a fag packet will count as formal design if there is one and someone can find it.


    Andy B.
  • 0
    I have no sympathy for either contractor or client. A simple single-line plan showing layout could have been scribbled by a three-year old to save the grief.
  • 0
    It can be highly frustrating sometimes getting information out of clients. Even  basic crosses on a piece of paper is well beyond some and normally results in I wish I had a socket here later.
  • 0
    Correspondence this week with step-daughter and her husband with plan of downstairs lighting. I have had to ask about a couple of omissions, previously discussed. The position of the front porch switch in the entrance hall is in there, but nothing about external switching. Do they want manual or PIR? Similar concerning the back door and side gate.


    For no obvious reason, I was sent details of the boiler (type of RCD previously discussed). He has been putting in the wiring for the wet underfloor system and thermostats, etc. but he didn't give a moment's thought as to how the thermostats would be connected to the boiler. As luck would have it, he was able to substitute some 3C&E for T&E a couple of days before the plasterers were due.


    Herding cats is easier! ?
  • 0
    AncientMariner:


    So as per my post title, who is the electrical installation designer?  Who is responsible for drawing up a diagram of what is wanted/required?  The property owner is not electrically qualified.


    And of course, what should the person who contacted me (property owner) do?



     


    Ask the Client or the Principal Contractor who the Designer is for the Works. They should know under CDM Regulations.


    If it's a "domestic client", then the Principal Contractor takes on the responsibilities of the Client ... so it's all down to them.


    If the "works" is only the electrical installation work, which might be the case here, it's all down to the electrical contractor / electrician.


    Now, here's the rub for the poor electrician/contractor. If the works were  more extensive than the electrical work, and they failed to ascertain who the Principal Contractor or Designer was, they were not legally entitled to start work under CDM Regulations.


    So, in essence, the question always comes back to the electrical contractor / electrician, and I think the burden is on them unless they can demonstrate otherwise. I don't think it can be the Client for a "domestic client".


  • 0
    From what I can see this is a contractual matter.


    What exactly was the electrician asked to do? Was this in writing, it does not have to be in writing much much easier if it was?


    Did the electrician provide a written quotation to do the specified work?


    Was the extra work quoted for and was it agreed.? Was this in writing? Law of contract offer and acceptance before the work is done not post contract.


    Who did the design? Was it the electrician or somebody else? This is an NICEIC electrician so he/she is obliged as a condition of their membership to comply with BS 7671. BS 7671 requires installations to be designed see Regulation 132.1.  Was the electrician  following the design? Ask for the design information to be sent to the client, if CDM Regulations apply in Wales then this has to be made available. I have done court cases when I have been provided with an EIC with a person signing for design, I ask to see the design which of course is not provided and the person gets ask why they have not disclosed it in cross examination which is very entertaining to watch.


    Then it is a case of verify the work done complies with BS 7671 and the agreed work has been done for the agreed sums? If the agreed work has been done for the agreed price then the contractor has to be paid. If not refute the claim in writing, you can find standard letters on line. 


    If you are thinking of making a complaint to the NIEIC they will not be interested in any contractual matters or if litigation has started.
  • 0
    gkenyon:

    Ask the Client or the Principal Contractor who the Designer is for the Works. They should know under CDM Regulations.


    If it's a "domestic client", then the Principal Contractor takes on the responsibilities of the Client ... so it's all down to them..


    I have to confess that I was unaware that CDM applied to small or even not so small domestic projects. HSE guidance, which is worth reading is here. It says this about domestic clients:

    Domestic clients

    If you are having work done on your own home, or the home of a family member, and it is not in connection with a business, you will be a domestic client. The only responsibility a domestic client has under CDM 2015 is to appoint a principal designer and a principal contractor when there is more than one contractor. However, if you do not do this, (as is common practice) your duties as a domestic client are automatically transferred to the contractor or principal contractor. If you already have a relationship with your designer before the work starts, the designer can take on your duties, provided there is a written agreement between you and the designer to do so.


    Given that this work is for a holiday let, it is difficult to see how the client could be a "domestic client".


    My understanding of the Regulations (which are not excessively long) is that the responsibilities of the Principal Designer are to ensure that the programme of work is safe and that work complies with the appropriate standards (including BS 7671). I don't see any statutory duty to ensure that the design does what the client wants it to do. That is a matter of contract.


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