That might have been me - I put a Schucko socket in a downstairs bathroom to VDE 100 part 11, much to the joy of my local building control, when the ink was barely dry on part P. I later found that this had rattled all the way back to the office of John Prescott before approval, as they were not too sure what to do with it. I suspect most normal sparks would rather not do that.


Since then the approved doc has been revised and the requirements in the UK for notification relaxed somewhat.

(and all mention of HD384 has gone - I suspect with Brexit it is becoming a bit moot anyway )

More on what an HD is here  '384 defines the goals of IEC 60364, which is in turn more or less adapted to create BS7671 in the UK, or VDE standard or french norms or greek Elots or whatever.

The early part P used to say 

General

0.2 A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow:

a. the technical rules described in the body of BS 7671: 2001, or an equivalent standard approved by a

member of the EEA that includes issuing an electrical installation certificate to the person ordering the

work


(The EEA, or European Economic Area comprises the EU and EFTA. The full scope is:


Austria

Belgium

Cyprus

Czech Republic

Denmark

Estonia

Finland

France

Germany

Greece

Hungary

Iceland

Ireland

Italy

Latvia

Liechtenstein

Lithuania

Luxembourg

Norway

Malta

Poland

Portugal

Slovakia

Slovenia

Spain

Sweden

Switzerland)


As far as BS7671 is concerned you can have any rating of radial you like, so long as fuses and breakers are made in that rating, but the 2.5mm 20A, and 4mm2 30A radials are common for 13A sockets, but you certainly could have a 16A one, or for that matter a 10 A one, or whatever you fancy. Its just not one of the worked examples in the on-site guide, so some thought about floor area served and cable size is required..



However, if I was adding a Schucko to a more normal UK house, I'd probably just do it as a 13A fused spur, and probably in a side by side double box, but note that this is to neither set of regs, but can be easily reverted. (though I did raise the issue of foreign sockets in the recent draft for comment of the next issue of BS7671 it will probably be ignored).

As for mixed lights and power that is quite common - both ways, you find sockets on the lights circuit in the loft for the TV amplifier, and in smaller conservatories and outbuildings, to have one circuit with a few sockets and the light all in one is common, (though that  should be be with the light switch as a fused spur if the circuit fuse/breaker is more than 16A however.)

regards

Mike.

IMG_8543.JPG


Yes it was you I believe :)


I read another post on here about the lights and sockets and have to agree I will be planning it a little better and connecting them on the same radial. 


The Schuko sockets are installed on the rear radial that was completely new, they are on a 20A MCB.  I will keep the others I install on the small radials that will feed each of the areas.  I will be dividing upstairs by another two/possibly three and downstairs as two plus kitchen area. 


We did order up some NYM for the appliances (safely tucked away somewhere in the attic) 4x4mm for the appliances (might even have been 6mm) not sure without finding it again. Not required at this time.  Not anticipating have to move in the next fives years anyway if not longer. 


Thanks for clarifying the rules again, no doubt they will ignore the request about foreign plugs that you have made.

Why do you actually really need Schuko sockets?

In most circumstances I consider it poor practice to connect lights and socket outlets to the same circuit, though permitted.

I do not like the idea of the lights going out when a defective appliance trips something.

There are exceptions of course including the example already given of an aerial amplifier plugged into a socket connected to the upstairs lighting circuit.

Likewise a single combined lighting and power circuit to a small outbuilding is reasonable.


But for general domestic use, poor practice IMHO.

mapj1:

That might have been me - I put a Schucko socket in a downstairs bathroom to VDE 100 part 11, much to the joy of my local building control, when the ink was barely dry on part P. I later found that this had rattled all the way back to the office of John Prescott before approval, as they were not too sure what to do with it. I suspect most normal sparks would rather not do that.


Since then the approved doc has been revised and the requirements in the UK for notification relaxed somewhat.

(and all mention of HD384 has gone - I suspect with Brexit it is becoming a bit moot anyway )

More on what an HD is here  '384 defines the goals of IEC 60364, which is in turn more or less adapted to create BS7671 in the UK, or VDE standard or french norms or greek Elots or whatever.

The early part P used to say 

General

0.2 A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow:

a. the technical rules described in the body of BS 7671: 2001, or an equivalent standard approved by a

member of the EEA that includes issuing an electrical installation certificate to the person ordering the

work


(The EEA, or European Economic Area comprises the EU and EFTA. The full scope is:


 

That boat has sailed ?

Ah yes, but it's not how we do things here; and we never wanted to be in your club; and now we aren't, so we'll keep doing it the BRITISH way. ?


Regarding lights and sockets on the same circuit: it's six and two threes. OK something in your sitting room socket trips and you have to fumble your way to the door in the pitch black ('cos even all those little standby LEDs have gone out) but your hall lights are still on; or is it better that all the lights have gone out downstairs including where other people may be.


I shall never understand some people's mentality. Step-daughter's new house has some sort of pump for aerating the sewage tank. It's German so it came with a Schuko plug. I advised against changing it for fear of invalidating the warranty and offered to fit a Schuko socket in the adjacent potting shed where the CU is situated. This thing is intended to be permanently connected and there are two further 13 A sockets for rechargeable garden tools, so the socket has no other purpose. In order to avoid "nuisance tripping"* it always was going to be on its own circuit (B6 i.a.w. manufacturer's instructions) and there are still spare ways in the CU. But oh no! Hubby just wouldn't have it. He had paid for an adaptor and he was bl**dy well going to have it.


Sorry to be so anecdotal, but that's the mentality. ?


P.S. The adapter looks horrid.


*"nuisance tripping" seems to be a euphemism  for bad design.

Chris,

did you see the feedback I got when I mentioned the theoreical 2,(or even 3 or 4) rings on one fuseway?

Some folk thought I was a heretic- one even suggested taking out two ends of different rings and joining them in the consumer unit in order to form one big ring.

BS 7671 to my mind isn't entirely clear cut - for household and similar sockets have to be shuttered - but most modern European types are anyway these days so that shouldn't be a stumbling block. It does list allowable socket types (table 55.1, all to British Standards) and a preference for BS 1363 for household - but then allows exceptions for amongst other things for 'a circuit having special characteristics such that danger would otherwise arise or it is necessary to distinguish the function of the circuit' - so if you could argue that the circuit's function is to supply continental equipment with unfused plugs, then some might believe you. Invoking the 'special circuit' rule from 553.1.5 also means that requirement for non-reversibility is also dropped so you can have the option of reversible German styles ones as well as the non-reversible (but still not reliably polarised) French ones.


Even the general requirement for equipment to comply with a British (or Harmonised) Standard is conditional on their being such a standard - in the absence of one the 'appropriate standard of another country' is permitted - so we're OK on that score too.


So with a bit of determination you might be able to install Schuko sockets directly under BS 7671 - using reduced c.s.a. c.p.c. T&E if you wish. (Just not within 3m of a bath though.)


   - Andy.