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Part P third party

KevinP
Re Part P Certification. Does a third party have to physically test an installation himself or is it sufficient to trust the test evidence of the electrician that did the work. I have been asked this by a neighbour and whilst I once knew the wiring regs I am no longer up to date (and not practicing). Thanks
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    mapj1:
    quite a few electricians are likely to need more qualifications, but that has not been a problem for the Gas industry, although it may have pushed up prices somewhat. How do you all feel about that?



    Well I'd suggest before we leap onto that one we really should take  a breath and double  if the Corgi and then Gas Safe register approach is actually making things significantly safer, or just more expensive.

    I must say, that when part P was coming in I looked at this, and certainly then, in 2004, it was not at all clear how much of the slow decline in CO poisonings per year  (explosions make the news but really they are not the main gas related danger ) was the result of the CORGI scheme as it was then, and how much was actually just improved product standards and the slow replacement of ancient open flue water heaters and so on.


    I would need to dig up my copy of HSC/E's Fundamental review of gas safety (from about 2001)   and associated figures, but certainly I do recall there was not a clear cut benefit (by then the scheme had been running for over 10 years, so there really should have been.)

    (and at that time you could do a partial correction  using  Eire as a place without a Corgi-like scheme, but presumably with a similar update rate of old gas appliances to new ones , though a smaller number of them)


    M.


    I agree that strict regulation does risk being counter-productive - stopping sensible "DIY" jobs that for any minor deficiencies still provide better safety than not doing the job at all. The additional costs of doing it "properly" then being a dis-incentive in a significant number of cases. During the original debates about part-P, if I recall correctly, the example of Australian and New Zealand we held up - their actual wiring standards were practically identical - yet NZ had a significantly lower accident rate due to faulty installations. The cause of the difference was attributed to Australia insisting that only licenced electricians could do anything but the most trivial electrical work, while NZ was happy for anyone to have a go.


       - Andy.


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    Paper clips? I have seen holes in consumer units and fittings big enough to get the legs of the clothes airer through with or without the plastic caps on the ends of them.


     https://www.lakeland.co.uk/25459/Lakeland-4-Fold-Airer
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    Sort of still on topic - have a look at this and let me know what you think.
    Are You A Qualified Electrician?
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    whjohnson shared 
    Sort of still on topic - have a look at this and let me know what you think.
    Are You A Qualified Electrician?


    Interesting video, made me review this more generally and there is a good article from the IET ie https://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/years/2017/67-september-2017/electrical-qualifications/


    Presumably an IET committee is busy simplifying things. For domestic installations (and maybe others) I guess everyone  in this forum would feel competent/confident but for someone starting out all the alternative training options must be confusing and daunting. In the case of the guy in the video you would of thought it possible for a relevant certified experienced electrician, or maybe a C Eng, could simply approve him and his experience as a professional, call him 'Electric Safe' and put him on a national register of Electric safe engineers that can be checked by anyone. Is that too simple? maybe some training organisations would object and it would be open to abuse if the people certifying were unprofessional and just approved anyone who asked. But the IET is good at this kind of approval, eg at awarding C Eng and other 'Qualifications + Experience' certification, being a responsible technician or engineer.

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    The whole thing is a right dog's breakfast. At one time, the City & Guilds certificate at the end of a traditional 4/5 year apprenticeship was all you needed unless you wished to progress further.

    Now, the practical engineering content has been padded out with more emphasis upon work contracts and health & safety.

    I don't know what AM2 is, nor whether I actually need it.

    I did the old C&G 200 series pts 1 & 2, then the 16th ed and the old 2391. I reckon that's more than enough to be able to conduct safe and correct electrical work, without resorting to having to gain yet another certificate in order to be able to work out the correct number of safety cones/barriers/notices are supposedly required for a given site.In the old days we were taught critical thinking and the emphasis was more upon self-reliance. Nowadays they just want a paperwork trail as an a*** covering exercise. Litigation of epidemic proportions is yet another unwelcome import from the USA I'm afraid.
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    One reason there is a myriad of differing opinions as to what is a qualified electrician, is simply what constitutes qualified is subjective, so can be spun in various differing ways to suit the agenda. There was a rapid change from late 1980's to early 1990's in the way people entered the trade. There was really only one way originally. You were employed by a firm as an apprentice, usually at the age of 16. You did day/week release for a period. You did the City and Guilds exams. Some completed and passed, some failed, some just passed some of the exams, then stopped. But there was a job for all at the level you were happy with. Some stayed "improver" forever, some stayed as electrical labourer's or electricians mate, others progressed. But aside from opinion on the suitability of the "supervision" and the degree to which it was carried out, you were usually one of many, with peers of various differing skills and ability and experience, some good and some not so good, but the whole thing was at some level of control, insomuch complete and utter Badgerdom would not be tolerated as you would be shamed by those that you worked with. On building sites the judgement would also be from other trades such as plumbers, plasterers and chippys, also working for firms. You did learn on the job. You were only likely to be left unsupervised doing a particular task you had demonstrated to be sufficiently proficient in. You were really only stopped being supervised after 5 to 7 years, at which time you started some of the supervision of others yourself. One person bands did not really exist, though you could be a subby. But you had to be a good subby, else the PAYE sparks would call you out if you dared to mess up their jobs.


    Early 1990 was fast forward and an explosion of single enterprises, one person bands if you like, but they were made up of mix of labourers,  improvers, perpetual mates  and Electricians with full tickets, with no demarcation and no peer review. As mentioned by posters on the old forum, there were also the industry maintenance sparks newly unemployed, entering the installation market particularly domestic.  So in the absence of any modicum of control, it is no wonder that as time has gone by, bits of various paper have become more important to some as some proof of anything. Horses for courses, I do not think a quick reccy of who or what is "qualified electrician" by any old Ceng would be of any use unless that Ceng had also supervised that persons electrical career from the start and had completed a formal apprenticeship themselves and also had all the C and Gs. Not very likely.  Seems to me that wish is just another shortcut that leads instant electrician.


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