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Part P third party

KevinP
Re Part P Certification. Does a third party have to physically test an installation himself or is it sufficient to trust the test evidence of the electrician that did the work. I have been asked this by a neighbour and whilst I once knew the wiring regs I am no longer up to date (and not practicing). Thanks
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    There is the fundemental flaw in the QS system. The CPS schemes only register enterprises they do not register individuals. The enterprise only has to have a semi competent person who is assessed. There is a load of mother and apple pie stuff in the EAS document that provides guidance on what should happen. The CPS schemes do not send this out to their registered enterprises and most of it does not form part of the assessment process.


    There after the assessed person know as the QS only has to perform an administrative process, they do not have to go to site and often do not. This allows the enterprise to send out unqualified people to site to do the work and test it which may or may not be done. These persons can dress the part with the CPS logo on their clothing and their vans which gives the impression to the public they are using a qualified and competent electrician.
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    That is about the crux of it John, hence my continued refusal to become a member of such a scheme. My 'verifier' trusts me implicitly, as do I him, He does enough 'notifiable' work to make it worth his while. We worked together for the same engineering company as employees before we both went on our own. He has a couple of lads working for him now, whereas I am a year or tow short of retirement.

    The practice of 'unofficial' third party verification may well be frowned upon, but it is how the world really works, alongside that of no site visits by QS's.
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    I don't think anyone qualified in our industry would have a good word to say about Part P . Of course the CPS operators and their subsidiary companies think it was a brilliant scheme as they have a strong financial interest. 


    I strongly believe that anyone who terminates a conductor by way of trade should be qualified and individually registered . The organisation carrying out the registration independent from the bodies providing training and assessment. The registration body having to tender to run the register so could be the Post Office, Passport Office or Capita who run the Gassafe Scheme.
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    Thank you everyone for such surprising and honest responses. I have combined your responses into a summary (sorry if I missed anyone).

    Original question: Someone has notifiable electrical work provided by an uncertified electrician then another electrician signs test certificate without actually visiting and testing himself.  Is this Valid?
    Answer: Not officially, but it happens....
    Routes to get certificate
    1. An electrician could have been assessed in a Competent Person Scheme and be able to certify his own work. He needs to be company registered.

    • A company employing several electricians may only have one person as ‘QS’, That person may then approve the work of the other electricians, apparently as if it was his own (I am not advocating this as ideal, simply that it happens)

    • A person registered with NAPIT for Third Party Certification (TPC) can assess an un-certified electricians work and must be involved in planning the work and final testing.

    • A Local Authority Building Control Department can be asked directly to issue a certificate, they may ask for evidence or send someone to inspect.

    • In practice informal arrangements do occur, basically outside the rules, e.g where unofficially an electrician may join a company with a QS for the duration of the work in order to gain the certificate (ie use route 2). However this may not stand up to scrutiny.

    Thanks everyone. In this particular instance I believe route 4, via the local authority, would be appropriate but that the electrician who contracted to undertake the work in the first place should compensate the customer, ie pay for the local authority work. Thats is assuming the certificate is not issued anyway (despite not following the rules). You could argue the customer should have checked the electrician was able to certify the work correctly at the start, in practice its hard for a general member of the public to understand the nuances. Several of you commented on the inadequacy of the rules around Part P. As one person said, every electrician undertaking this work should be a competent person and registered.




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    Kevin


    There is slight variation on the Local Authority route which is very sensible approach. Some LAs will accept a test certificate from a qualified electrician for a reduced notification fee. You cannot demand it as the decision is the LAs. The ones that will accept it will authorise it if the copies of the electricians qualifications are submitted in advance.


    Clients are well advised to select their electrician by asking to see their qualifications in advance. Anyone with a DISQ " qualification" is not a qualified electrician. For qualification ask to see originals of an installation qualification, a level 3 regulations qualification and a Level 3 inspect and test qualification. The genuine electrician will be delighted to produce the qualifications if they can't, I lost them in a house move but I am a fully qualified electrician etc etc, then thanks but no thanks.

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    John, Thanks for your contributions on this discussion. I have summarised my new understanding elsewhere. I was surprised by several responses. The essence of it is that anyone doing domestic electrical work needs to be competent and those undertaking notifiable work have to follow the rules. It seems from the responses that it has become custom and practice to 'adapt' the rules so those not registered as competent can still work. That is not to say that electricians not registered are not competent. Perhaps what is needed is a much stronger equivalent of a Gas Safe register that is branded with a catchy phrase. Maybe just call it 'Electric Safe' and people on that register should be able to test and certify, ie be competent people, and be responsible in law for the work they do. Such a competent person should, in my mind, be able to test/certify existing installations too....or is that another can of worms. I will stop there. Thanks again.  Kevin
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    KevinP:
    Thanks everyone. In this particular instance I believe route 4, via the local authority, would be appropriate but that the electrician who contracted to undertake the work in the first place should compensate the customer, ie pay for the local authority work. Thats is assuming the certificate is not issued anyway (despite not following the rules). You could argue the customer should have checked the electrician was able to certify the work correctly at the start, in practice its hard for a general member of the public to understand the nuances. Several of you commented on the inadequacy of the rules around Part P. As one person said, every electrician undertaking this work should be a competent person and registered.


    Who pays for what is entirely a matter of contract.


    If the electrician purported to be a member of a CPS, but was not, advise your neighbour to contact the relevant scheme. They may choose to pursue him or her: essentially, it is a matter of fraud. Trading standards may be interested.


    It is not necessary to be a member of a CPS to issue an EIC. In fact, I don't think that any particular qualifications are required BS 7671 641 in a nutshell: the work must be verified and (641.6) The verification shall be made by one or more skilled persons competent in such work. "Skilled person" is defined as, Person who possesses, as appropriate to the nature of the electrical work to be undertaken, adequate education, training and practical skills, and who is able to perceive risks and avoid hazards which electricity can create.


    Whilst a folder full of C&G certificates and membership of a CPS are good evidence that a person is skilled and competent, they are not, in fact, necessary to demonstrate the fact.


    If the work was notifiable, it really was up to the householder to ensure that the trader belongs to a CPS. There is plenty of advice out there.


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    Whilst I agree with JP 100%, the tricky bit will be to get the "scheme" operators to comply. Whilst some may have charitable status, it is not clear who the recipiants of the Charity are, except perhaps the employees! John's idea may need some changes to training, and quite a few electricians are likely to need more qualifications, but that has not been a problem for the Gas industry, although it may have pushed up prices somewhat. How do you all feel about that?
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    quite a few electricians are likely to need more qualifications, but that has not been a problem for the Gas industry, although it may have pushed up prices somewhat. How do you all feel about that?



    Well I'd suggest before we leap onto that one we really should take a deep breath and double check if the Corgi and then Gas Safe register approach is actually making things significantly safer, or just more expensive.

    I must say, that when part P was coming in I looked at this, and certainly then, in 2004, it was not at all clear how much of the slow decline in CO poisonings per year  (explosions make the news but really they are not the main gas related danger ) was the result of the CORGI scheme as it was then, and how much was actually just improved product standards and the slow replacement of ancient open flue water heaters and so on.

    Headline figures are not so much different
    then

    and
    now - scroll down to the 'Ridgas' tables ~(an 'excel' sheet).

    By 2020 CO fatalities are indeed a lot lower than the early 2000s, and that in turn is better than the 1970s, how much of that is down to the registration and so forth is hard to tell, but there is no kink in the figures from 1989-1990 onwards when CORGI came in.

    I would need to dig up my copy of HSC/E's Fundamental review of gas safety (from about 2001)   and associated figures for a better analysis, but certainly I do recall there was not a clear cut benefit (by then the scheme had been running for over 10 years, so there really should have been.)

    (and at that time you could do a partial correction  using  Eire as a place without a Corgi-like scheme, but presumably with a similar update rate of old gas appliances to new ones , though a smaller number of them)


    M.
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    I may add that none of the self cert schemes are charities, the one that was prior to 2005, quickly changed track as they all dashed for the part p trough.


    I remember at one of my routine annual assessments prior to about 2004/2005 the Inspector saying something along the lines of "they will all be banging on our door to get in now".


    Boy was he was correct!  2004, about 20 voluntary registered contractors in my area. By 2008 it was 200.

    I suppose that is where the "instant electrician" boom started.

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