This discussion is locked.
You cannot post a reply to this discussion. If you have a question start a new discussion

Open PEN detection for 722.411.4.1 (iv)

Following on from the recent discussion about the adequacy of open-PEN detection devices that disconnect when the L-N voltage goes outside of the 207-253V range and how, when the single phase installation is fed from a 3-phase supply system, some open-PEN situations might go unnoticed even though the PEN/PE voltage can be significantly higher than 70V from true Earth.

Can people check that I'm understanding this correctly please?

As I see it, once the PEN becomes disconnected, it's free to float from Earth and can therefore be dragged towards the various L1/L2/L3 voltages depending on any impedances left between the severed N and the line conductors (usually any connected loads).

So thinking about it in phasor diagram terms, you have the usual triangle formed by L1/L2/L3 and N can then be dragged to any position within that triangle.

The detection device is looking at L-N voltages - or to put it another way, it's measuring the voltage on the N by using L as a reference. It's only seeing one phase, so can't work out anything about phase angles so it measures the magnitude of the voltage difference only - the phase angle of the measured L-N voltage could be anything. So I'm thinking that any given voltage different like that would show up on a phasor diagram as an arc (or circle) centred on the L position (L1 say) - the radius represent the magnitude of the voltage difference from L and the angle could be anything (within limits) - hence an arc rather than a single point.

So drawing arcs for the 207V and 253V from L, I get a region in between where the open-PEN device will think all is well.

So I've got this:

so the coloured regions are were the device thinks all is well - green where the N/PE voltage is actually ≤50V from true Earth, yellow between 50V and 70V (usually deemed acceptable for EV situations) and red where the device thinks all is well but the N/PE voltage is actually in excess of 70V from true Earth (anything up to 128V in this particular example). For the remaining unshaded areas of the triangle, the device will see L-N out of range and disconnect. Does that all make sense?

I've had to make an assumption about the actual line voltage present - since the N/PEN voltage is measured against that - I picked 240V as being typical for a UK installation, but of course it could vary considerably - which I suspect will mean that there could be an even wider range of PEN voltages that under particular circumstances the device would regard as being acceptable.

   - Andy.

Parents
  • So where are we in terms of a simple risk analysis, say using parameters like likelihood, severity, duration?

    Difficult. Statistical methods tend to make some assumtions or others - e.g. all starting conditions being equally likely - which may or may not be relaistic in practice.

    For instance, if we had a situation where L1 and L2 had similar loads on them and L3 was unloaded (perhaps not unreasonable if the break affected say a pair of semis) then the 400V between L1 and L2 would be shared roughly equally between the two sets of loads, so each seeing something near 200V. Being lower than normal L-N voltage there would perhaps be little chance of loads frying and so "automatically disconnecting" themseleves as it were, so the situation might persist for some time. On the diagram N would be about halfway along the straight-line between the L1 and L2 points - so could well fall into the red zone (depending on the exact figures involved).

    As Graham says, in practice things may well not be static though - even if nothing fries it's likely that some appliances will have change their consumtion from time to time - fridges will switch compressors off or on, thermostats on heaters will click. So things may swing into and out of the red areas. There's then the question of how the devices respond in that situation - do they latch off as soon as a voltage out-of-range event occurs or do they only remain switched off while the event persists and then re-close automatically when the voltage appears to be within range again? BS 7671 doesn't seem very specific on that point (it's not permitted to re-close while the voltage is still out-of-range, but doesn't specify whether than needs to be manual or can be automatic), and I can see arguments both ways - I can see a system that results in an entire neighbourhood finding their cars flat in a morning just because someone's vacuum clearer fused and the old BS 3036 fuse was a bit slow to clear the fault might not be entirely popular. C.p.c. current monitoring is certainly an extra safeguard, but not one that any standard currently insists on for these devices - so is that something we can rely on?

        - Andy.

Reply
  • So where are we in terms of a simple risk analysis, say using parameters like likelihood, severity, duration?

    Difficult. Statistical methods tend to make some assumtions or others - e.g. all starting conditions being equally likely - which may or may not be relaistic in practice.

    For instance, if we had a situation where L1 and L2 had similar loads on them and L3 was unloaded (perhaps not unreasonable if the break affected say a pair of semis) then the 400V between L1 and L2 would be shared roughly equally between the two sets of loads, so each seeing something near 200V. Being lower than normal L-N voltage there would perhaps be little chance of loads frying and so "automatically disconnecting" themseleves as it were, so the situation might persist for some time. On the diagram N would be about halfway along the straight-line between the L1 and L2 points - so could well fall into the red zone (depending on the exact figures involved).

    As Graham says, in practice things may well not be static though - even if nothing fries it's likely that some appliances will have change their consumtion from time to time - fridges will switch compressors off or on, thermostats on heaters will click. So things may swing into and out of the red areas. There's then the question of how the devices respond in that situation - do they latch off as soon as a voltage out-of-range event occurs or do they only remain switched off while the event persists and then re-close automatically when the voltage appears to be within range again? BS 7671 doesn't seem very specific on that point (it's not permitted to re-close while the voltage is still out-of-range, but doesn't specify whether than needs to be manual or can be automatic), and I can see arguments both ways - I can see a system that results in an entire neighbourhood finding their cars flat in a morning just because someone's vacuum clearer fused and the old BS 3036 fuse was a bit slow to clear the fault might not be entirely popular. C.p.c. current monitoring is certainly an extra safeguard, but not one that any standard currently insists on for these devices - so is that something we can rely on?

        - Andy.

Children
No Data