This discussion has been locked.
You can no longer post new replies to this discussion. If you have a question you can start a new discussion

Exposed: Cash for logos and drive by inspections

Former Community Member
Former Community Member

Inadequate inspections on the safety of wiring in buildings across England are increasing the risk of fires, E&T has found. A flawed regulatory system has sparked a race to the bottom, with some businesses profiting at the expense of the public’s safety. 

eandt.theiet.org/.../

Please get in touch with any comments/thoughts you may have

  • The terrible fire at Grenfell Tower was probably (according to reports) caused by a bad connection inside a tall fridge freezer. This fault would not have been found by an Electrical Inspection and Test of the installation, or even a PAT of the appliance.

    news.sky.com/.../grenfell-tower-inquiry-faulty-wiring-in-fridge-freezer-started-fire-says-expert-11565956

    Z.

  • https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40301289

    Z.

  • Former Community Member
    Former Community Member in reply to Zoomup

    That's fair. The article is about week regulations that are putting people at risk. It could be argued the government should have tightened these regs post-Grenfell. 

  • Actually there is very little point in introducing new rules that are not followed, or are unreasonable to follow. It seems that most electricians cannot do inspection to the level that those who dream up the regulations seem to expect, at any cost that is proportionate to the likely value  of lives or property saved,  so not requiring them to do so may be more sensible. (*)
    We must also beware of a fast track to train inspectors., the result may be similar to an EPC, where the expert may well be a "hollow professional" and reliant on a 'computer says no' approach, which maybe just about works for thermal assessment of  an estate of houses all with cavity wall insulation, but is likely to fail at the first hurdle of lights that are a mix of 2 and 3 plate and not exactly as per the OSG.

    There is a very real risk, that  as once folk get a taste for not bothering to either understand or think about one set of rules, they are likely to extend the same attitude to the rest. Actually in much domestic building this may have already happened.

    (the same 'ah sod  it' effect can be seen if you watch traffic - once  one car starts speeding it is very likely those behind it will also )

    Rules and registers  on their own add costs, but do not alone necessarily ensure any improvement.

    Take as a cautionary tale if you must part P - before it was lightened up in 2012 - did it alter the prevailing trends for fires and electrocutions as expected ?
    Well, only if you very carefully cherry pick the two before and after years you wish to compare. (Niciec and ESF I'm looking at you..)

    I did some analysis of this for the 2012 consultation into part P, and it was very clear that the trends of falling rates of fire and electrocution did not start to fall faster post the introduction of  part P and competent person schemes, if anything the rate of fall off rather reduced, post part P, so not at all the desired effect. The data is now ~ a decade out of date but attached for anyone interested as an example of how to see if a supposed improvement is actually working as intended or not.PDF

    We really do not really require a regime of inspections and some  register of competent inspectors that ends up being  similarly unhelpful.

    Mike

    (* so, say a life lost is £1 million, and a house damaged by fire is £500k. If on average it costs £150 to do an inspection,  it may sound like a super saving. Not so, unless there are so many fires and deaths prevented by those electrical inspections, (and as above Grenfell would not have been) ,  that is only worthwhile  if not inspecting would, with good confidence, have resulted in an incident of that magnitude a rate of 1 per 10,000 inspections. Not a near miss, but a full blown incident...  )

    If not then it does more good to spend that money saved on some other measure, like testing water heaters for Legionnaires or stair carpets for loose fittings, so long as those causes of fatality remain  more prevalent.

  • I was doing Landlords Electrical Safety inspections, but I stopped because the legislation  the government put on place is not fit for purpose and I decided I would be better off out of it.

    I did write to my Member of Parliament Robin Walker to raise concerns before the legislation came into force, I have a letter from him saying my concerns were unfounded and it would all be okay. 

    The government are to blame. 

  • Former Community Member
    Former Community Member in reply to Sparkingchip

    Hi Sparkingchip, would you be able to share this letter with me?

  • You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. We have excellent wiring regulations that if followed, create a good safe electrical environment. If applied, along with regular inspection and testing to a high standard, risks can be minimised. The inspection and testing needs to be carried out by experienced, competent,  qualified HONEST inspectors. Honesty can not be assured if money/profit is a high motive.

    P.S. I actually think that 10 years between inspection and testing of domestic installations is far too long a period. More frequent inspection and testing is needed.

    Z.

  • I am sure i have not thrown the letter from my MP away and have it somewhere, the whole thing was destined to fail, so I cannot understand why anyone should be surprised if it has.

    A couple of points about the article, these inspections were being carried out whilst Covid restrictions were in place because the government refused to delay the date they were supposed to be completed by, which was a mistake and also makes the claim that electricians were sat in cafes completing EICRs a rather wild claim.

    Also there is not an example of an unnecessary upgrade that a landlord paid for, can we have an example? 

    The government do not grasp how poor the housing stock is in UK is and completely underestimated the work required, which was more than could be completed by the electricians available. By now every rented should be completely free of any electrical issues, that was never going to happen.

  • Quote: "One retired electrician, who wishes to remain anonymous and has carried out hundreds of EICR inspections and testing when registered with an approved competency body, tells E&T he has seen “a number of dubious reports and poor practice including guys sitting in cafes filling in page after page from a pad containing report sheets and certificates”."

    In reality I went and did a landlords EICR and the tenant went to work to be told he had failed a Covid test, so I then had to self isolate because I had been a contact, electricians were not sitting in cafes writing out landlords EICRs and I would have been better off if I had never done that job as I then lost over a weeks income.

    The retired electrician was talking about historical events that may actually be myths and that were definitely not relevant to the period that most of the landlords inspections were being done.

    The clue is in his title "Retired electrician" that is not someone who is out and about seeing what is going on.

  • I suspect there may be quite a few dodgy EICRs. The real question of course should not be about that, nor should it be about disappointment at more or less prosecutions. These are totally spurious, you may as well be disappointed at the number of sparks who do not eat salad with their cheese sandwiches, this too will prematurely kill a few folk a year.

    What actually matters is how many dangerous (not just not to latest regulations, but actually dangerous ) electrical installations are out there, and what fraction, if any, of those  will be found and corrected only as a result of an EICR. These are the only EICRs that have any safety merit the rest are just dross to be ploughed through to find them.

    That needs measuring, and properly, not just by chatting to a few disgruntled contractors over a pub lunch.

     note that many faults may be corrected anyway as a result of general refurbishment or repairs when something actually fails, and by the same token new hazards may be introduced between inspections by badly done work.

    It may be better in the cost -effective sense, to do a simpler test, such as walking around looking for smashed fittings and chafed wires and bits of live copper poking out the wall, (*) without doing a full blown test, as far more properties could be tested, and that would still catch common dangerous cases. Add a plug in RCD test, and a wander lead and continuity buzzer to see if earth reaches the appliances and far points of a few circuits, and you may well catch nearly all truly dangerous.

    * not joking - that is the level of thing that can happen and that needs fixing urgently, not fretting about measuring Zs to 3 decimal places to allow for 230V instead of 240 or the minutiae of the latest regs edition.

    Mike.