I had the very same "discussion" many years ago with what I would call and over zealous NICEIC inspector who basically stated that unless its a push button then no other device was for "Emergency switching". Now my discussion was around a lever operated device i.e a firefighter/firemans switch. So what some people have said on this thread, you need to grab the lever then push it up, the spring pin then latches it off.

Now , when I then showed him what the regs indicated but also the standard description, the definition indicated and emergency stop can be either a button, rod or lever operated device, so with that definition Im still waiting on that NICEIC inspector to draw me or show me an example of a lever operated device that you dont grab then push up or down?

Too many people focussing on one single action, to me its not the single action of what your hand does its the single operating action of one electrical accessory that latches in the off position and isolates all forms of energy etc from the installation/equipment/machine.

Also with possible flames licking my backside then me activating that device would be so fast it would be classed as one action!!

Cheers GTB

Agreed, Regulation Groups 537.3 and 537.4 ought to help sort that out. 537.3.3 does sort of lead you down the e-stop route, although there is a complete separate standard for e-stops.

GTB said:

Now , when I then showed him what the regs indicated but also the standard description, the definition indicated and emergency stop can be either a button, rod or lever operated device, so with that definition Im still waiting on that NICEIC inspector to draw me or show me an example of a lever operated device that you dont grab then push up or down?

Agreed.

GTB said:

to me its not the single action of what your hand does its the single operating action of one electrical accessory that latches in the off position and isolates all forms of energy etc from the installation/equipment/machine.

Again, agreed ... BUT we need to be careful to limit that to the switch that the person presses, rather than the actuator that removes power, otherwise e-stops operating on drop-out contactors (to the e-stop standard BS EN ISO 13850, or per  BS 4163 Health and safety for design and technology in educational and similar establishments) wouldn't be permitted, which I think adds weight to your argument.

And grabbing the firefighter's pole to reach the 2.75m high fire fighters' switch involves more than one single action.

Z.

And grabbing the firefighter's pole to reach the 2.75m high fire fighters' switch involves more than one single action.

Z.

I think a fire fighter's switch is acting more like an isolator than an emergency switch. A fire fighter will likely activate it as a precaution before squiring water everywhere. As opposed to "someone is getting an electric shock from this neon sign, quick turn it off!".

wallywombat said:

I think a fire fighter's switch is acting more like an isolator than an emergency switch.

In BS 7671, yes, but that's not the case where other standards refer to BS 7671, and specify the switch for other purposes. Which is, I think, where GTB is coming from?

Morning Graham,

Yes, You know how we use a physical " Fire Fighters" switch as an "Public Emergency Switching Device" so it is mounted at a height no greater than 2M from finished floor height. We fit a piece of red label material over the words "Fire Fighters Switch" to keep the pedantic inspectors happy so they are hidden, and have a large yellow back ground behind the physical switch so its red against yellow with the appropriate engraved words on that yellow background in large red font. The emergency switch is for use by the public hence the Max height its mounted at as they shouldnt have or need a firefighters axe on them to activate it.

Cheers GTB

So it's not intended for use by very short people or the disabled then?

Z.

Zoomup, I said its for use by the public!,

There are other emergency stop devices provided elsewhere for suitabl;y trained and competent staff to operate, and if it is a self service facility the console staff will or should have operated the emergency stop they have rapid access to before a member of the public accesess the one for use by the public.

My wife, is only 4ft 11, and it would take a very brave man for fear of physical harm to call her anywhere near being short!

Also my words defined the switch at being no greater than 2M from finished ground/floor level.

Yes I know what you wrote, I read it. In many local filling station kiosks the emergency stop is a mushroom head that can be pushed in one single action. What is the exact wording around the external firefighters' switches that you install?

The camper van incident is only an example of where an emergency switching off may be required. I do believe that it happened as it has been reported in the national press. I have made no comment on the cause of the fire or when it started. That is not relevant.

Z.

Zoomup,

Here you go,:

" Where the site is unattended, partially unattended, or attendant operated, an emergency switching device has to be provided in the forecourt area, outside of the hazardous areas, visible from all dispensing positions and readily accessible for rapid operation in emergency (i.e. it should not be positioned more than 2 metres above the ground). On large sites a number of suitably located operating means may be required to ensure rapid operation of the emergency switching device.

Where dispensers incorporate loudspeakers, the supply to the loudspeaker system has to be interrupted by the emergency switching arrangement. 

The operating means (such as handle or pushbutton) for the device is to be coloured red against a yellow background. Resetting this device alone should not restore the supply. The separate single means of restoring the supply should be manual and located within the building where it is inaccessible to unauthorised persons. 

A conspicuous, durable and legible notice has to be fitted adjacent to every operating means of the emergency switch device, as prescribed in 9.9.11.".

GTB