I had the very same "discussion" many years ago with what I would call and over zealous NICEIC inspector who basically stated that unless its a push button then no other device was for "Emergency switching". Now my discussion was around a lever operated device i.e a firefighter/firemans switch. So what some people have said on this thread, you need to grab the lever then push it up, the spring pin then latches it off.

Now , when I then showed him what the regs indicated but also the standard description, the definition indicated and emergency stop can be either a button, rod or lever operated device, so with that definition Im still waiting on that NICEIC inspector to draw me or show me an example of a lever operated device that you dont grab then push up or down?

Too many people focussing on one single action, to me its not the single action of what your hand does its the single operating action of one electrical accessory that latches in the off position and isolates all forms of energy etc from the installation/equipment/machine.

Also with possible flames licking my backside then me activating that device would be so fast it would be classed as one action!!

Cheers GTB

I had the very same "discussion" many years ago with what I would call and over zealous NICEIC inspector who basically stated that unless its a push button then no other device was for "Emergency switching". Now my discussion was around a lever operated device i.e a firefighter/firemans switch. So what some people have said on this thread, you need to grab the lever then push it up, the spring pin then latches it off.

Now , when I then showed him what the regs indicated but also the standard description, the definition indicated and emergency stop can be either a button, rod or lever operated device, so with that definition Im still waiting on that NICEIC inspector to draw me or show me an example of a lever operated device that you dont grab then push up or down?

Too many people focussing on one single action, to me its not the single action of what your hand does its the single operating action of one electrical accessory that latches in the off position and isolates all forms of energy etc from the installation/equipment/machine.

Also with possible flames licking my backside then me activating that device would be so fast it would be classed as one action!!

Cheers GTB

Agreed, Regulation Groups 537.3 and 537.4 ought to help sort that out. 537.3.3 does sort of lead you down the e-stop route, although there is a complete separate standard for e-stops.

GTB said:

Now , when I then showed him what the regs indicated but also the standard description, the definition indicated and emergency stop can be either a button, rod or lever operated device, so with that definition Im still waiting on that NICEIC inspector to draw me or show me an example of a lever operated device that you dont grab then push up or down?

Agreed.

GTB said:

to me its not the single action of what your hand does its the single operating action of one electrical accessory that latches in the off position and isolates all forms of energy etc from the installation/equipment/machine.

Again, agreed ... BUT we need to be careful to limit that to the switch that the person presses, rather than the actuator that removes power, otherwise e-stops operating on drop-out contactors (to the e-stop standard BS EN ISO 13850, or per  BS 4163 Health and safety for design and technology in educational and similar establishments) wouldn't be permitted, which I think adds weight to your argument.

And grabbing the firefighter's pole to reach the 2.75m high fire fighters' switch involves more than one single action.

Z.

Definition. "EMERGENCY SWITCHING OFF. Opening operation of a switching device intended to remove electric power from an electrical installation to avert or alleviate a hazardous situation."

The switch is normally manually operated. It will not be automatic. So the action must be simple and singular. A "single action only". 465.3.

"Too many people focussing on one single action, to me its not the single action of what your hand does its the single operating action of one electrical accessory that latches in the off position and isolates all forms of energy etc from the installation/equipment/machine."

The first sentence of 465.3  deals with the mechanics/electrics of the switching device. The second sentence deals with the human intervention to actually operate the switching device.

MCG 25A 2 Pole 230V Fireman's Switch IP65 (FMS 25/2) | CEF

Z.

I think a fire fighter's switch is acting more like an isolator than an emergency switch. A fire fighter will likely activate it as a precaution before squiring water everywhere. As opposed to "someone is getting an electric shock from this neon sign, quick turn it off!".

wallywombat said:

I think a fire fighter's switch is acting more like an isolator than an emergency switch.

In BS 7671, yes, but that's not the case where other standards refer to BS 7671, and specify the switch for other purposes. Which is, I think, where GTB is coming from?

Morning Graham,

Yes, You know how we use a physical " Fire Fighters" switch as an "Public Emergency Switching Device" so it is mounted at a height no greater than 2M from finished floor height. We fit a piece of red label material over the words "Fire Fighters Switch" to keep the pedantic inspectors happy so they are hidden, and have a large yellow back ground behind the physical switch so its red against yellow with the appropriate engraved words on that yellow background in large red font. The emergency switch is for use by the public hence the Max height its mounted at as they shouldnt have or need a firefighters axe on them to activate it.

Cheers GTB

So it's not intended for use by very short people or the disabled then?

Z.

Camper van catches fire as driver is filling it up at Morrisons petrol station in Weymouth | Daily Mail Online

Z.

Zoomup, I said its for use by the public!,

There are other emergency stop devices provided elsewhere for suitabl;y trained and competent staff to operate, and if it is a self service facility the console staff will or should have operated the emergency stop they have rapid access to before a member of the public accesess the one for use by the public.

My wife, is only 4ft 11, and it would take a very brave man for fear of physical harm to call her anywhere near being short!

Also my words defined the switch at being no greater than 2M from finished ground/floor level.

Zoomup,

Dont believe everything you read in the papers!!, maybe the camper van was already on fire before it arrived in the filling station..........................

GTB