Do they have an entertainments licence. I suspect any insurance that covers it will require proof that the electrical installation to be to a certain standard.

Popping out on overload isn't  dangerous, the protection is doing its job. It just wasn't designed for the use it is getting and rcd's may have not been required.

Gary

I have performed a search for the premises by name, postcode and street name and there are three premises listed but not the Masonic Guildhall. Other than the insurance for the premises what are the legal requirements to maintain the electrical installation in a safe manner?

I agree that the BS88 fuse performed it's job correctly and isolated the circuit. It transpired that the three phase fuse box had two of its phases disconnected at both ends so effectively instead of the original 3 x 40amp fuses everything was being supplied through a single 40amp fuse. A new 32Amp circuit had been installed to provide power for a portable toilet block. that was used during the beer festival also on the same 40amp fuse.

There are a number of considerations. The first would be is it actually dangerous? 

Lights going out when you plug in too much may or may not be dangerous - if folk can then fall down steps they cannot see it is an immediately dangerous matter. Otherwise it is probably just a nuisance, Are there exposed live parts, frayed cotton insulation or things that are burnt and charred by repeated overload? again if so immediate danger. I'd also be very wary of any rubber covered cables as well as this tends to perish over time but it can be OK if the conditions have been cool and free from UV.. Things like no RCDs are not as serious as no main earth, or oversized fuses - its not that long ago since the things were very much optional on a new installation, this sort of not meeting current standards would be improvement recommended, rather than danger.

Then there 'is the is it suitable?' question - now it may be suitable for a weekly meeting and  small dinner gatherings, but by the sounds of it for your sort of event clearly not - the other solution for large events is to treat it like a barn or a festival, and install hire event cabling, either back to the incomer, or if that too is undersized (you do not say what kept blowing) then to a genset in the car park.

And then, as the answer above, the liability and insurance angle - is there a credible mechanism where someone could be hurt (and that really has to be single fault to danger, not some long and improbably sequence of what if events ), and who would be responsible if they did?  Insurance usually drives things like a requirement for periodic inspections EICRs,

If they really are not interested, then there is not a lot you can do after warning them, then they are on their own,.

Mike.

Hi Mike,

Many thanks for your detailed reply (it was the 40Amp BS88 fuse that blew several times). The beer festival has been held at two different venues and both have had power problems / shortages of suitable sockets / documentation. The venue has a number of outlets that are essentially only there to supply the cleaners with somewhere to plug in the vacuum. 

The beer coolers themselves are all RCD protected as is the toilet block.

Should the venue be chosen for next years beer festival more power will be required as  the number of beer coolers was underestimated and there also needs to be environmental cooling (topped out at 28C).

I had assumed possibly wrongly that a building that was had rooms for hire would  a test certificate / documentation etc. I will make these points at the selection meeting in September and will also put forward using a genset to provide reliable power.

It transpired that the three phase fuse box had two of its phases disconnected at both ends so effectively instead of the original 3 x 40amp fuses everything was being supplied through a single 40amp fuse.

Ha! Now that makes me wonder if the supply and metering has been changed to single phase to save some money.  If that is the incomer I agree it is pretty mean - actually 3 phase at 40A each is only a large-ish house in those parts of the Europe that use electric heaters, and not that far in KVA from the 100A single phase supply one finds in the meter cupboards of all-electric  housing estates here. (our scout HQ for example is 3 100A phases, and its not exactly big stuff.)

I think in your shoes I'd be looking for a more suitable venue, or factoring the cost of a hired genset  and  cables and trying to negotiate the price down. (and/or get them to fit a 3 phase event socket near the incomer- whcih needs to be suitable rated.) (a hundred KVA of self contained genset with bunded tank can be not much more than a horsebox size trailer)

I really do not think you have the authority to legally force their hand, but there is an argument for attacking the more sensitive organ, (the wallet) instead.

Mike.

Unfortunately there appears to be only two venues in the locality that have sufficient capacity for the attendees. The other venue has little in the way of accessible power and again is limited to islands of 32amp. I have had varying answers as whether there are multiple circuits or they are all part of the same ring main. This other venue was also subject to random trips although these were MCBs  that could be reset - not helpful when you find the beer coolers have been off since the previous night.

The Guildhall appears to have the power as there are extensive cooking facilities / industrial sized freezers. A big problem is the complete lack of documentation - hence the difficulty locating the fault.

I would like to see a power plan submitted that takes into account the total power required for all the coolers, fridges and air conditioning units (broken down by room). I would also like to have this is a binding contract with penalty clauses.

Ideally a separate genset and we are the masters of our own power.

Having done EICRs for many Village Halls, Church Hals and similar to enable them to meet requirements of Electrical Safety at work regulations , insurance and local premises licence requirements, I am very surprised that EICRs have not been done for the premises you are looking at. For one Local Authority, as I was not a member of NICEIC or ECA , I had to supply copies of my qualifications before they would agree to accept my PIR (old version of EICR) on a Village Hall.

I did the remedial work on a Church that was closed for months due to a unsatisfactory PIR, the insurance company would not accept the risk until the work was done and the power had to be turned off. . 

I have just had a fire safety inspection done on a small Village Hall (Licensed for 80 people) I am associated with and the inspector wanted to check that all the electrical certificates and PAT  results were available as well as checking emergency lighting design, certificates and maintenance records. The inspector said that if something goes wrong it will be the trustees of the hall in the dock if they cannot prove they have ensured the building is safe.

As other have said there may not be a risk, but if an accident does happen blame may well be distributed widely if adequate proof of safety is not available.

A generator is sounding like a good option.

I may be missing something but can you not run extension leads from the next floor up if it's on a separate 40 amp fuse that way you'll spread the load  and avoid fuse blowing. Also it may help to avoid or reduce lamp flicker when the coolers start up. Probably more noticeable if they have proper lights rather than LEDs

As others have said, insurance requirements often drive this, and as organisers of a beer festival event, presumably you have public liability insurance so one port of call is to read the policy conditions for that.  They may or may not help you.

The wider legislation is the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.  These are regulations under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974.  The HASAW Act includes obligations to ensure the safety of all persons who may be affected by your work activities (in this case public visitors and staff for your beer festival).  The EAW Regulations are broadly drafted and have a very wide scope.  Essentially if anything electrical goes wrong and causes injury you're likely to be caught under these. 

This legislation doesn't make you responsible for a fixed installation of a venue that you are hiring, but it does require you to ensure that any temporary electrical systems you provide are safe.  If your source of supply is unsafe (poor/missing earthing, inadequate capacity, incorrect polarity, inappropriate connections etc.) then what you provide is unlikely to be safe, so you should satisfy yourself of the properties of your supply source.

It's entirely down to your organisation to make sure your overall provision is safe.  For your temporary works you might want to consider having these signed off under BS7909 (not a legal requirement, but a good defence under the EAW regs if anything did go wrong).  I'd certainly be looking for that for a temporary install from a GenSet - to include all the distribution as well.

If you check polarity and earth loop impedance of outlets before you connect to them (a good quality plug-in tester is better than nothing), you can provide your own RCD protection for your temporary installations.  Record all of that in your risk assessment and you've probably got most of the bases covered then.

I would also advise not to be fooled by an apparently 'good' installation or outlets, and still carry out the basic tests as shiny new covers can hide a multitude of sins!

Ultimately if your organisation won't take it seriously then you need to decide if the personal risk to you against any rewards is worth your continued involvement.

Jason.

Problem  is for all we know the upstairs supply is the same main fuse or at least just as flakey - remember it is not well documented. Really the building owners need to be a bit more pro-active if they want to hire this place out, but I suspect the only lever is threatening not to come or demanding a price drop.

The advantage of asking for a 3 phase event socket supplied from the incomer is that there is none of the same risk of extension leads from we don't know where that may already share with other loads or be on lightly fused submains / branches. And it is quite am easy and quick thing for the building owners to organise compared to say a full rewire. From the user point of view it is a halfway house, the hired indoor cables and so on are the same as a genset, but without the fuel the noise and the piece of plywood as a cable entry board cut to fit a window that has to stay open....

Mike