Scott Seedell said:

blatant discrimination

There may well be an element of unlawful indirect discrimination on the ground of age, which is one of the protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010, but I am not sure how you would enforce it.

Thanks.

It's even more discriminatory when considering that the technical certificates studied on apprenticeships directly before and after the CG2330 are both now still deemed acceptable. Being punished for the year of apprenticeship starting seems perfectly acceptable to the EAS (I still don't know who they actually are).

How on Earth do we try and get some uniformity with the these different organisations (ECA, JIB, ECS, EAS etc etc etc) and get them all singing off the same hymn sheet?

Be careful what you wish for. Chances are the other organisations will align with the EAS.

    - Andy.

I have also had / am having dealings with EAS that could also perhaps be described as discrimintory.

They acknowledge my qualifications, they acknowledge the qualification could not have been undertaken without an apprenticeship...

yet without proof of that apprenticeship I am unable to work in certain sectors. Even though the qualifcation is by it's existance proof of apprenticeship.

The end result is an admin system flawed that discriminates against skilled people subject to when they qualified

who is it ? surprisingly hard to find out isn't it. 

https://electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/building-regulations/electrotechnical-assessment-specification/

The Committee comprises representatives from across the electrical installation industry, including
the competent person schemes. The EAS document can be downloaded free from the IET www.theiet.org/eas

Except that the link is busted.

It seems the press releases are all written by these chaps.

https://www.the-esp.org.uk/mission-objectives/

The Electrotechnical Skills Partnership (TESP) is a not-for-profit industry partnership formed by the Electrical Contractors’ Association (ECA), Joint Industry Board (JIB), National Electrotechnical Training (NET), SELECT and Unite the Union to support electrotechnical employers to develop and drive the industry’s skills agenda.

Sounds great, but you do wonder how we get so many quangos...

latest presentations.

https://www.the-esp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/TESP-TQF-02-March-2023.pdf

It looks like you could even join  in..

https://www.the-esp.org.uk/training-and-qualifications-forum/

Hmm.

Mike.

I would suggest a system established that removes a persons ability to practice their trade would need a strong basis for such or risk consequence should a case against be taken to law. It is no minor measure to restrict a persons ability to earn a living in this way and should be given all due process and consideration of all known facts.

I would like to be given such good reason to suggest a person is not competent / suitably qualified and such would need to be a good deal more than: Sorry computer says No

Crazy isn't it. 

I had a 30 minute slanging match with NICEIC technical this afternoon and all he could repeat was that if it was listed on his list of acceptable qualifications then there's nothing he could do. I lost count of the number of times I told him that I wasn't disputing what was on his list, it was the reasons for exclusion that I wanted answers to. They just aren't geared up for critical thinking unfortunately.

It transpires that some bright spark decided to shake things up following Grenfell and revamped the accepted list of accredited qualifications in 2021. It was deemed acceptable to remove CG2330 and retrospectively enforce it's inferiority so that everyone who had ever studied it suddenly had a worthless piece of paper. Why on Earth that was done is beyond me, especially as it was once a prestigious qualification. 

Scott have you read through the disussion 'are the IET resticitng electrical contractors' ?

I am a great believer in looking to patterns. Patterns are reliable indicators. This pattern as told by yourself and many others is becoming ever more an indicator of a fault developing. A fault that is affecting many good long serving electricans.

You certainly nailed it with your comment regarding lack of critical thinking. I see that as not by chance and somewhat concerning. An engineering mindset kept suppresed by numbing administrative committee with a need to justify an existance.

It's an ongoing annoyance to people of 45yo+, who did an apprenticeship in the 70's/80's, but now don't have the qualifications to become a QS with NIC/Napit, or, get the JIB Gold Card. Annoying for me, I had both in the early 2010's, but, took a paid , employed job, so I had no need for either of them any more, so gave them up. Fast Forward to 2021, and I'm now a Technician, not an Electrician, and cannot get a Gold Card, or be a QS. Past experience is no longer enough. The only option is the C&G2346, and AM2. Roughly £2500 for them.

It isnt just Electricians, at the last Site I was on, some Plumbers also had the same thing, they needed an NVQ3 to renew their cards, Managers were also being pushed to update their qualifications, some had the Black Managers cards, but couldnt renew them through a lack of NVQ.

It's a real pain, I put off doing the C&G2346 for 2 years, but finally paid for it, and need to complete my portfolio to prove I am an Electrician! I've told this one before a few weeks ago, I submitted a few pics of me installing a panel board and 4x 240mm SWA for one of the points required. I got a reply back, 'no need for such things, just show a domestic cu, and a 13a socket wired from it'.

Thats the problem with prescriptive "Lists" and those making the "Lists" only do so for a certain period of time looking in the past or as some of you have stated looking back to the competency qualifications and registered apprenticeship schemes in the 70's and 80's.

I started my apprenticeship in 1981, first class of apprentices to use the "New" 15th edition. I gained my C&G 236 Pts 1 and 2, my "C" course. I have my letter from the SJIB And contractors Association of Scotland ( Days before SELECT) Endorsing my apprenticeship and now a craftsperson and over the years have always updated my C&G regs courses and also did the original C&G 2391 course. I have always renewed my SJIB Technician electrician Gold card in fact its due for renewal next spring.

Although its been many years since I was a NICEIC QS in fact I was a NICEIC Haz area QS. Looks like if I wanted to be a QS for a NICEIC firm, suddenly my skill set, qualifications which I still have originals of plus 42 years exeprience and CPD records are all out the window???

That is plain to me wrong. So a newer carftsperson with modern quals and AM2 and a few years out of their time can be a QS but myself with say additional 35 years experience is suddenly seen as less able and non compliant?? I think a good ground for discrimination based on age. Its all very well saying Gareth... no issues you will eat the new course and AM2 just do it? Why? what do I need to prove. Its a tick box excersise and makes life easy for decision makers. Rather than perhaps, ok you dont have the criteria on the list, why not do a simple tech interview and you will soon know if I can cut the mustard.

I get CPD, no issues at all.

Other point is, what does the Law say? and that is be competent, so Reg 16 of the EAWR 1989 etc, if something goes wrong and you are in a court room, all you need to demonstrate is competence. Paper certs etc help. But the work I do now investigating installations where things have went wrong and went on fire or system failure. I can assure you in 95% of cases the misdemeanor and errors were created by so called certificate, gold card and AM2 holders often working for NICEIC firms, the very people that can get EAS approval!!!

The new craftsperson 2 years out their apprenticeship, has two years "Experience", I have 42 years "Experience"  plus the paper trail of my quals, so I would like to think the younger person isnt credited and Im disadvantaged.

Rant over...........

GTB