It's an interesting discussion.

Certainly, the differentiators are

• the application of Part P (England and Wales)
• the relevant devolved Building Regulations Technical Handbooks/ACOPs
• Fire safety requirements (also subject to differences in the devolved nations)

as they apply differently to domestic vs commercial/industrial.

Going forward, I see further differentiators with systems like Solar PV, battery storage, EV charging, etc - commercial and industrial being a different kettle of fish.

But I do see your points regarding common ground.

gkenyon said:

Going forward, I see further differentiators with systems like Solar PV, battery storage, EV charging, etc - commercial and industrial being a different kettle of fish.

Agreed. Even then, your average "domestic" (makes me think of cooks, butlers, and parlour maids, etc.) would need to undertake some sort of course for the additional skills. I might add fire alarms to Graham's list, at least for larger properties.

lyledunn said:

operative experience in three-phase installations and wiring systems such as steel conduit is likely to be absent or minimal at best

Yes, but neither is particularly difficult. Compared with plumbing, conduit doesn't even have to be leak-proof.

I would suggest that the  real dividing line is at the main fuse. ≤ 100 A or > 100 A.

the dividing line is at the main fuse. ≤ 100 A or > 100 A

except perhaps the larger domestic properties or smaller commercial ones.... and anyway what changes about the wiring to the lights (or 13A sockets) when the main supply is bigger?  (unless you are actually working on the incoming main or sub-main itself of course.) As far as I can see it is more likely that domestic has fewer sub-mains and less layers of distribution where one board feeds another,  and maybe that the main room with the incomer in is more likely to be locked in commercial so you have to wait for the keyholder, but you can charge more... but actually in a block of domestic flats even that is not always true.

Equally it is not always true to say that there is no T and  E in commercial. 

There are specific domestic hazards, such as pets, children and heavy furniture when in occupied houses, but they are not really part of the electrical installation.

This distinction seems to me more like a slightly arbitrary  wedge to drive between otherwise similar folk, to allow more money to be extracted for qualifications if folk want to keep a hand in both areas.

Which I think was the point of the original post..

Mike

mapj1 said:

and anyway what changes about the wiring to the lights (or 13A sockets) when the main supply is bigger?

Part L is different, and the actual, "protocols" also ... both affect the wiring ... potentially ..even when we go "SMART" (i.e. DALI or equivalent vs HBES .... Alexa, Google Home etc. compatible)

That may be true, and the ceilings are higher as well, but is competence in setting up Alexa controls for example actually guaranteed by having  the domestic card in question ?

M.

This is an interesting debate.  In my opinion and ONLY my opinion the answer is it depends.


Consider
When did the Electrician do their apprenticeship, 70s, 80, 90s, 00s, 2010s and 2020s ?

I have met many a person who says they are an electrician that would probably fail the NOW New entry criteria.  Their work for the area is very good but maybe they have been specialised in that area for so long that they may not really need the other parts.  Eg a a PCL/controls engineer may neither do domestic or commercial so may not need to know the current height for a double power socket.  Some of these people will hold a ECS gold card and some may not.

I have also met people over the years that carry a gold card who say they do Domestic/Commercial and industrial but there work is not very good and sometimes will need to be rectified or ripped out and done again.  Sometimes this is due to the person and sometimes this is due to the fact that they are a sub-contractor and they are following a Design/Plan which is not well Designed or Planned.  Eg an FP600 doing several ninety degreed bends in the space of 2 meters or less.

There are also people in the industry which trained in other country and again some are great and some not so great.

Over the years I have spoken to cable engineers in Data Centres who argue that they do not need to comply to BS7671 as they are only dealing with cat3, 5, 6 and 7.  At best they state the cable may carry PoE (Power Over Ethernt) I ask then to consider things like premature colapse in the event of fire.

Future development ideas
In my opinion and ONLY my opinion things may in time need a re-think.  Then term Electrician is so varied that maybe it needs to be split further.  Maybe it starts with a based academic study and then a practicable element and then people and choose to specialise into Domestic or Industrial or Commercial.  At the moment it seems that 100Amp or less is Domestic and the rest is commercial/industrial.  This will get more blurred or vague as time goes on.  Eg Solar PV is using DC.  Now some PV panels will drop to 1 volt until they are synced with an inverter some will produce a few hundred volts of DC.  This them means that some domestic PV roofs are only only presenting maybe 10 to 15 volts DC and some maybe producing 100s or thousand of volts.  Again long term this I think needs to a clearly labelled on the cables and the inverter, not so much for the installer but for the person who follows.  Eg it could be someone doing a Proper EICR on the proper rather than one who fills the form with LIM or does it from the van outside.

There also needs to be more thought about how an adult can join the Electrical industry, lets say someone in there 30 or 40 or 50s.  Some people may want a career change.  These people may already have some of the skills required and they may also have some of the certificates but there is no simple way to joing the dots and get them the ECS gold card and CPS approval.  I do think that CPS need a separate team to deal with cases where the tick box method excludes very viabale candidates.  Maybe some kind of skills and knowledge assesment and then an action plan with a local college or training provider and onsite work experience to help get them over the line when they are ready and capable to do so.  One of the biggest hurdles for an adult learner or change of career person in the salary they can expect while they are in this transition period which could take upto 3 years. 

This is going to be a good thread!!

My opinion is I will fall back to Reg 16 of the E.A.W.R 1989 and what does that state "Competancy".

No legal definition of an Electrician in the UK, and thats why we have the issues we have, I operate in flammable atmosphere electrical installations and believe me a domestic electrician wont cut the mustard, a decent industrial/commercial electrician once they have taken on board the additional electrical theory and installation practices and can apply the 60079 standard then those people succeed.

I think now trying to compare electrician with electrician just cant happen. I think a traceable basic electrical theory and practical competancy demonstration thru third party accredited bodies  after a regulated apprenticeship/adult training program is whats required then electricians can add to that basic skillset with recognised modules again accredited for say building standards, fire, datacom, emergency lighting, EVSE, PV etc

Cheers GTB 

I am glad you agree with my thought process of a basic electrcian with bolt on specialities.  It does however mean that in the long run we actually may need more electrcians in general as they will be a more spcialised roles.  However I am sure that someone with ATX skill set could comfortably work on commercial or industrial under a good quality QS.  The same may not be true for doing Domestic work.  There is a real and valid skill set in doing house bashing or refurbs.  Consider a 100 to 130 year old house with no sqaure walls or floors or maybe the most simple task of lifting a floorboard.  I have seen them ripped and smashed. 

There is also the consideration in a domestic enviroment of newbuild or refurb.  A lot of which are normally dealt with by sole traders.  They need to be aware of things like asbestos (80s to 2000) it was used a lot in Artex and similar coatings.

Sergio Fernandez said:

Consider a 100 to 130 year old house with no sqaure walls or floors or maybe the most simple task of lifting a floorboard.  I have seen them ripped and smashed.

Please don't get me started on floorboards. Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, plumbers are even better at marmalizing floorboards and joists.

It is all very well hiding butchered floorboards under a good thickness of underlay and carpet, but what if you want bare boards? When I refurbished our breakfast room, I had to replace a third of them.

All that said, I am not convinced that these ancillary skills should be part of electrical competence.

"accessible with the use of tools"!

In a now lost thread on the old forum where someone had eventually found a junction box plastered into a wall behind a radiator or something, I tongue in cheek commented that it was clearly an example of an accessible design, as the photos showed that with hand tools, namely plumbing kit a  club hammer and scutch chisel or something,  access had indeed had been achieved.

So quality and 'professional judgement' certainly varies, it always had, and always will a bit.

But if each of these bolt-on qualifications is a few hundred quid course fee, and a few days of not earning, and then another  hundred quid for the exam and certs. we will indeed have a shortage of folk, as no one will be able to afford the full set of tickets.

Do really we need to test everything ?

Consider -  I passed my driving test in a mini metro, in the 1980s, and can drive, and have driven, 7.5 tonne trucks, 21 tonne tractors and co-driven a minibus full of scouts with a trailer behind it to Switzerland and back (just once - but plenty of times minibus driving in the UK ).

I appreciate that modern driving licences are not quite as useful, but the idea remains, you test all the basics, and then let folk grow into the specialized roles as the needs of the job require their skills to develop.  You do not have to take another test specially for cars with an electric hand-brake, for example, just  because you learnt with a manual one...

So yes, some stratification is useful, but there is also a limit, we do not need too much.

Mike