This is going to be a good thread!!

My opinion is I will fall back to Reg 16 of the E.A.W.R 1989 and what does that state "Competancy".

No legal definition of an Electrician in the UK, and thats why we have the issues we have, I operate in flammable atmosphere electrical installations and believe me a domestic electrician wont cut the mustard, a decent industrial/commercial electrician once they have taken on board the additional electrical theory and installation practices and can apply the 60079 standard then those people succeed.

I think now trying to compare electrician with electrician just cant happen. I think a traceable basic electrical theory and practical competancy demonstration thru third party accredited bodies  after a regulated apprenticeship/adult training program is whats required then electricians can add to that basic skillset with recognised modules again accredited for say building standards, fire, datacom, emergency lighting, EVSE, PV etc

Cheers GTB 

I am glad you agree with my thought process of a basic electrcian with bolt on specialities.  It does however mean that in the long run we actually may need more electrcians in general as they will be a more spcialised roles.  However I am sure that someone with ATX skill set could comfortably work on commercial or industrial under a good quality QS.  The same may not be true for doing Domestic work.  There is a real and valid skill set in doing house bashing or refurbs.  Consider a 100 to 130 year old house with no sqaure walls or floors or maybe the most simple task of lifting a floorboard.  I have seen them ripped and smashed. 

There is also the consideration in a domestic enviroment of newbuild or refurb.  A lot of which are normally dealt with by sole traders.  They need to be aware of things like asbestos (80s to 2000) it was used a lot in Artex and similar coatings.

Sergio Fernandez said:

Consider a 100 to 130 year old house with no sqaure walls or floors or maybe the most simple task of lifting a floorboard.  I have seen them ripped and smashed.

Please don't get me started on floorboards. Whilst I appreciate the sentiment, plumbers are even better at marmalizing floorboards and joists.

It is all very well hiding butchered floorboards under a good thickness of underlay and carpet, but what if you want bare boards? When I refurbished our breakfast room, I had to replace a third of them.

All that said, I am not convinced that these ancillary skills should be part of electrical competence.

"accessible with the use of tools"!

In a now lost thread on the old forum where someone had eventually found a junction box plastered into a wall behind a radiator or something, I tongue in cheek commented that it was clearly an example of an accessible design, as the photos showed that with hand tools, namely plumbing kit a  club hammer and scutch chisel or something,  access had indeed had been achieved.

So quality and 'professional judgement' certainly varies, it always had, and always will a bit.

But if each of these bolt-on qualifications is a few hundred quid course fee, and a few days of not earning, and then another  hundred quid for the exam and certs. we will indeed have a shortage of folk, as no one will be able to afford the full set of tickets.

Do really we need to test everything ?

Consider -  I passed my driving test in a mini metro, in the 1980s, and can drive, and have driven, 7.5 tonne trucks, 21 tonne tractors and co-driven a minibus full of scouts with a trailer behind it to Switzerland and back (just once - but plenty of times minibus driving in the UK ).

I appreciate that modern driving licences are not quite as useful, but the idea remains, you test all the basics, and then let folk grow into the specialized roles as the needs of the job require their skills to develop.  You do not have to take another test specially for cars with an electric hand-brake, for example, just  because you learnt with a manual one...

So yes, some stratification is useful, but there is also a limit, we do not need too much.

Mike

Have to agree Mike. For the 1st 26 years of my career I worked in heavy industry but was expected to do the lot. One moment I might be fault finding on piece of industrial machinery and in another I might be re-lamping the director's office. On another day I might be installing conduit/SWA or /M.I.CC somewhere in a new extension of the plant. On nights we we left PAT testing or installing power trunking in the office block.

We were taught the lot back then. And it worked. It also taught us about our own limitations. For example, I would not feel confident about doing any work involving ATX sites or medical installations with a high risk, simply because they have become so complex and I have no experience in those areas. Same with fire/security alarm stuff, and I won't go anywhere near EV/solar etc. I have no idea what is taught these days but it seems to be more profitable for trainers to teach their students that it is more important to know how to hold a ladder and run plastic safety tape than it is to teach them about 3 phase supplies or motor controls.

Nowadays I mainly do small domestic stuff - at 63 I don't want the heavy gruntwork any more, nor have I ever been a 'gong hunter' who collects badges such as gold cards CIS etc etc.

To those who want more regulation and stratification in our industry I say Beware!

What I have learnt since going self-employed back in 2002 is that regulation has become a growth industry in exclusive pursuit of profit for itself and nothing else. The profit is made from getting the monkeys at the bottom of the pile to jump through more and more needless hoops at their own expense.

At one time, when a new regulation was proposed & drafted, it would be heavily scrutinized by peers with an excellent and qualified knowledge of the subject, and backed by sound evidence. If it could be demonstrated beyond doubt that the regulation would enhance the safety of those affected, then there was a good reason for it.

Not any more, regulations are now their own industry, driven by lobby groups from product manufacturers and litigation lawyers. Few, if any of the new regulations - (not just the wiring regs) - have had any real tangible benefit for the end user. You only have to look at the rainbows painted on police cars these days to witness that.

None of this aids in attracting more desperately needed people into our industry. What is needed is more broad-based training of real skills rather than bureaucracy.

Have to agree Mike. For the 1st 26 years of my career I worked in heavy industry but was expected to do the lot. One moment I might be fault finding on piece of industrial machinery and in another I might be re-lamping the director's office. On another day I might be installing conduit/SWA or /M.I.CC somewhere in a new extension of the plant. On nights we we left PAT testing or installing power trunking in the office block.

We were taught the lot back then. And it worked. It also taught us about our own limitations. For example, I would not feel confident about doing any work involving ATX sites or medical installations with a high risk, simply because they have become so complex and I have no experience in those areas. Same with fire/security alarm stuff, and I won't go anywhere near EV/solar etc. I have no idea what is taught these days but it seems to be more profitable for trainers to teach their students that it is more important to know how to hold a ladder and run plastic safety tape than it is to teach them about 3 phase supplies or motor controls.

Nowadays I mainly do small domestic stuff - at 63 I don't want the heavy gruntwork any more, nor have I ever been a 'gong hunter' who collects badges such as gold cards CIS etc etc.

To those who want more regulation and stratification in our industry I say Beware!

What I have learnt since going self-employed back in 2002 is that regulation has become a growth industry in exclusive pursuit of profit for itself and nothing else. The profit is made from getting the monkeys at the bottom of the pile to jump through more and more needless hoops at their own expense.

At one time, when a new regulation was proposed & drafted, it would be heavily scrutinized by peers with an excellent and qualified knowledge of the subject, and backed by sound evidence. If it could be demonstrated beyond doubt that the regulation would enhance the safety of those affected, then there was a good reason for it.

Not any more, regulations are now their own industry, driven by lobby groups from product manufacturers and litigation lawyers. Few, if any of the new regulations - (not just the wiring regs) - have had any real tangible benefit for the end user. You only have to look at the rainbows painted on police cars these days to witness that.

None of this aids in attracting more desperately needed people into our industry. What is needed is more broad-based training of real skills rather than bureaucracy.