So no bunsen burners, and don't even mention nitrogen triiodide! It is a wonder how we survived without goggles and ear defenders.

I suppose that my point is that society seems to have become more risk-averse for its own good.

Chris Pearson said:

no bunsen burners

Bunsen burners are fine. Section 3.1.3:

"3.1.3 Laboratories and technology rooms
Science laboratories and preparation rooms, and some design technology areas, are commonly fitted with gas supplies. Advice is given in the Institute of Gas Engineers 2004 publication UP11 Gas installations for educational establishments and IM/25 (ref). Each laboratory should be fitted with a lockable isolating valve to enable gas supplies to gas taps on benches to be shut off at the end of the day."

Which seems perfectly sensible advice.

As I'll have mentioned before, I used to be a school health and safety governor. In the 9 years I was one I don't remember a single occasion when I had to stop a teacher doing what they wanted to do due to either legislation or guidance. (For example for several years I taught every 10 year old child in that school how to solder. They loved it.) I certainly did come across other schools where all sorts of activities were restricted, but that was always down to the local management team rules, not the legislation or guidance. 

In my experience the problem is that very few people in education know how to do decent risk assessments. So they just don't do the activity. And that is sad and unnecessary. The answer is to train (particularly) school management teams in how to do H&S properly...

Andy Millar said:

Each laboratory should be fitted with a lockable isolating valve to enable gas supplies to gas taps on benches to be shut off at the end of the day.

Yes, but everybody has gone home, so what is the risk other than school burning down overnight?

(At which point, we can all have a sing-along:

Build a bonfire, build a bonfire,
Put the teachers on the top,
Put the prefects in the middle,
And burn the blooming lot.)

Andy Millar said:

For example for several years I taught every 10 year old child in that school how to solder.

Ah, but was there any lead in it?

I assume that you mean electrical soldering, but I guess that pipes are not very different.

the problem is that very few people in education know how to do decent risk assessments. So they just don't do the activity.

And I spend quite a lot of time with exactly this problem in Scouting - the obstacle is not legislation or even the association policy, but risk averse parents and younger leaders who have not had the uninhibited upbringing those of us born in the late 60s enjoyed that allows a cool and more realistic assessment of what is really the main danger and how to avoid it. The solution is almost never more paperwork.

For what it is worth, when teaching kids to solder in small quantities there is an argument for leaded solder - the dominant risk to them unless they are compulsive finger lickers, is inhaling  the fumes from the flux - as the unleaded solders tend to be far less 'wetting' the fluxes are correspondingly more aggressive and the fumes more nasty.

Ideally a well ventilated place and a regime of compulsory hand washing are the key mitigation factors, That and the briefing they get before they start about not eating the solder, deliberately breathing in the smoke or holding the hot ends of things. Oddly, they almost never burn themselves while soldering, which is the thing most folk seem to worry about.

With the right approach, the use of gas bottles, cookers and lights, cooking on fire, skinning and preparing your own dinner etc are all in the reach of a sensible 13 year old.

And somewhere I have a thing with 2 forks attached to a block of wood that can be made to come live to demonstrate the effect of 230V on hot dog  sausages, pickled gherkins etc. as a ' if you were stupid with the mains, this could be you' demo that usually raises an 'ooh'

It does  have both a key switch and a push button to make it go...

Mike,

This made me chuckle slightly.

A school that does not know how to teach (in this case its staff or senior management) about risk.

I remember using oxyaccetalin torch for welding and cutting in secondary school.  I personally think this is fairly low risk due to some of the following

Correct PPE

Correct tutoring

Correct environment

Common Sense and respect for tools

This may have been many moons ago but I am sure there was not much risk assessment done at the time.

To me a oxyaccetalin set is no more than a tool just like a knife.  If used property and safely there is no issue or should not be any issue.  Yes accidents happen and hopefully accidents can be dealt with without too much fuss.

Thus in a normal school day there should be no real issue for standard schools.  Specialist schools for behavioral issue might need to do a bit more safety in place but still should be OK.  I strongly think that everybody should have access to education.  Issues arise when people have bad intent or out of hours so this is where extra would need to be applied. There are also the common sense things like 4 way trailing socket with 8 things plugged in with cables all over the floor. 

So when accidents/ Bad intent / Failure of Common sense Some of the following need to be considered

Sprinkler systems

Monitored fire/smoke alarms

Intruder alarms

Illuminate Fire Exits

Also there is a need to bring back the humble FIRE bucket filled with sand for those pesky battery fires which are becoming more prevalent. 

Sergio Fernandez said:

This made me chuckle slightly.

A school that does not know how to teach (in this case its staff or senior management) about risk.

I gets me hugely frustrated, I've met many more schools (back in the days when I used to do lots of STEM volunteering) who are bad at it than those who are good at it. 

It's probably because most teachers have never worked in a high risk environment (at least as far as D&T / science is concerned). Often where I've found schools which are good at it it's because the head of science or head of DT is ex-industry (or sometimes, as Mike suggests, has extra-curricular activity such as scouts where they're more used to managing random circumstances). In my experience there's a need to be exposed to high levels of risk before being able to make proportionate judgments on risk  - and then being prepared to take responsibility for those judgements.

It also requires experience in going back to primary legislation and guidance to check what the actual requirements are, rather than basing decisions on rumour and news reporting (yes, I am mainly thinking of the Daily Mail here). Ironically what happens is that a H&S officer reads a (incorrect) story about, say, conkers being banned in school, so bans conkers in their school, so parents get frustrated, so the local press picks it up, so the national press picks it up, and around it goes... If anyone in a school said to me "xyz is not allowed" I'd always come back with "where in legislation or national guidance does it say that?" And of course it never did. What would come down to is "our school policy" (so who wrote that and why?) or of course sometimes insurance - and to be fair insurance is a real limiting challenge sometimes.

Of course it's not limited to schools, there's plenty of companies and organisations that have the same problem. And there tends to be similarities in appointing a head of H&S who doesn't truly understand the legislation and guidance (or at least how to access it), and isn't comfortable with taking responsibility for risk - both of which are pretty essential skills. 

Plenty to unpack there Andy

Daily Mail as a credible news source I wonder if the same people think YouTube or FaceBook news is all real and accurate and gives a fair/balanced representation?  There are lot of entities out there that sensationlise the news and report irresponsibilly.

Andy Millar said:

ts me hugely frustrated, I've met many more schools (back in the days when I used to do lots of STEM volunteering) who are bad at it than those who are good at it

I can understand your frustration on this one as well.  People need to learn to help others and educate others to make things better.  If they are note sure on something they should ask for some assistance.

Andy Millar said:

In my experience there's a need to be exposed to high levels of risk before being able to make proportionate judgments on risk  -

I agree

I took my son when he was 5 years old to a full house renovation project/ building site.  There were probably 100 risks present but I explained to him what was safe and what was not safe and most importantly WHY its not safe.  I also explained and showed him how to be safe in the particular enviroment.  Now that he is a few years older he goes to Cubs where I occassional help out.  With Scouts they are taught a more common sense approach to things rather than a risk management style.  He really enjoys it and hopefully will continue with the Scouts for many more years to come. 

Plenty to unpack there Andy

Daily Mail as a credible news source I wonder if the same people think YouTube or FaceBook news is all real and accurate and gives a fair/balanced representation?  There are lot of entities out there that sensationlise the news and report irresponsibilly.

Andy Millar said:

ts me hugely frustrated, I've met many more schools (back in the days when I used to do lots of STEM volunteering) who are bad at it than those who are good at it

I can understand your frustration on this one as well.  People need to learn to help others and educate others to make things better.  If they are note sure on something they should ask for some assistance.

Andy Millar said:

In my experience there's a need to be exposed to high levels of risk before being able to make proportionate judgments on risk  -

I agree

I took my son when he was 5 years old to a full house renovation project/ building site.  There were probably 100 risks present but I explained to him what was safe and what was not safe and most importantly WHY its not safe.  I also explained and showed him how to be safe in the particular enviroment.  Now that he is a few years older he goes to Cubs where I occassional help out.  With Scouts they are taught a more common sense approach to things rather than a risk management style.  He really enjoys it and hopefully will continue with the Scouts for many more years to come.